KVR Audio

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:03 am

zethus909 wrote:
And dissonance would be a much better understood notion, and this kind of question would never arise.
it's really simple. good dissonance sounds GOOD.

BAD dissonance, gives you a headache.

And who decide which is good and which is bad? Just an example: For me, shellfish is bad, but for most people I know they are divine. OTOH, for me chocolat is divine, as is for the most people I know. Yet, I knew a person who said she don't like chocolat. One of my favorite dishes is "cabidela", which is basically chicken rice cooked with the chicken blood added, mixed with vinegar. I bet for the majority of people here this would suck.

If some music gives you a headache, by all means, don't listen to it. Contemporary music is not easy, it requires an involvement from the listener, and a knowedge that comes with evolving through the music of romantic period, through the late romantics, expressionists (and impressionists too, although these followed a different path) and then the post-war serial music. You must walk down this way to fully understand this type of music

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:05 pm

There's no accounting for taste

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:38 pm

fmr wrote:Yet, I knew a person who said she don't like chocolate.

A woman who doesn't like chocolate? Proof or it didn't happen...

I once had a discussion with my wife where we both agreed that we would find someone who doesn't like chocolate highly suspicious and not to be trusted. It's just not natural, I tell you...

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:33 am

haha no. see i am not being crass...i literally mean, it gives you a literal REAL headache(see definition below). music has the power to do this, because it is, a real, acoustic pressure wave, that is literally hitting your eardrums.....it has REAL effects....on real living people. it isnt an abstraction, like music theory.

Headaches: What are they?

A headache is a condition of mild to severe pain in the head; sometimes upper back or neck pain may also be interpreted as a headache.

Headaches have a wide variety of causes, ranging from eyestrain to inflammation of the sinus cavities to life-threatening conditions such as encephalitis. When the headache occurs in conjunction with a head injury the cause is usually quite evident; however, many causes of headaches are more elusive. The most common type of headache is a tension headache. Some people experience headaches when they are hungry or dehydrated.
Types of Headache
Tension headache

Tension headaches, which were recently renamed tension type headaches by the International Headache Society, are the most common type of headaches. The pain can radiate from the neck, back, eyes, or other muscle groups in the body. Nearly everyone will have at least one tension headache in their lifetime.
Frequency and duration

Tension headaches can be episodic or chronic. Episodic tension headaches are defined as tension headaches occurring less than 15 days a month, whereas chronic tension headaches occur 15 days or more a month for at least 6 months. Tension headaches can last from minutes to days or even months, though a typical tension headache lasts 4-6 hours.
Pain

Tension headache pain is often described as a constant pressure, as if the head were being squeezed in a vise. The pain is frequently bilateral which means it is present on both sides of the head at once. Tension headache pain is typically mild to moderate, but may be severe. In contrast to migraine, the pain does not increase during exercise.
What causes these headaches

The exact cause of tension headaches is still unknown. It has long been believed that they are caused by muscle tension around the head and neck. However although muscle tension may be involved, there are many forms of tension headaches and some scientists now believe there is not one single cause for this type of headache. One of the theories is that the pain may be caused by a malfunctioning pain filter which is located in the brain stem. The view is that the brain misinterprets information, for example from the temporal muscle or other muscles, and interprets this signal as pain. One of the main molecules which is probably involved is serotonin. Evidence for this theory comes from the fact that tension headaches may be successfully treated with certain antidepressants. Another theory says that the main cause for tension type headaches and migraine is teeth clenching which causes a chronic contraction of the temporalis muscle.

only those who can detect the most minute differences in tone will have this problem...a few cents off, two tones, for a prolonged period of time, will drive you crazy....depending on the tone, and exact relationship....it's not a rule, but it is a real effect.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:18 am

sjm wrote: I once had a discussion with my wife where we both agreed that we would find someone who doesn't like chocolate highly suspicious and not to be trusted. It's just not natural, I tell you...

I know, right?

I too also thought it was impossible.

But let me tell you that I am also looked as highly suspicious for not liking shellfish. Most people simply can't believe I don't. In my country, shellfish is considered a divine delicacy.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:26 am

zethus909 wrote: only those who can detect the most minute differences in tone will have this problem...a few cents off, two tones, for a prolonged period of time, will drive you crazy....depending on the tone, and exact relationship....it's not a rule, but it is a real effect.

Except that, if we learn to hear sounds for what they are (not "semitones" or "differences in tone", because that doesn't exist in nature), we can realize that there is a universe composed of sounds, and sounds are beautiful. It's like painting. When the impressionists started painting, they were accused of not knowing how to draw. But they weren't drawing anymore, They were playing with light and shadow, with volumes and perceptions. And later people realized how beautiful that new technique was. The same applies to Van Gogh. When he started, his paintings were desdained, because they were looked as primitive and gross. Now, he is one of the most valued panters.

These artists crashed barriers, and entered in new universes, ruled with different laws. The universe of Ligeti is also different and ruled with different laws. There's no longer two tones, or three tones, There's just "sound" and "sounds". Like I said, it's like he was creating electronic music, but with acoustic instruments. The same applies to pretty much any big name in the second half of the XXth century.

cron · Post by **cron** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:02 pm

zethus909 wrote:only those who can detect the most minute differences in tone will have this problem...a few cents off, two tones, for a prolonged period of time, will drive you crazy....depending on the tone, and exact relationship....it's not a rule, but it is a real effect.

I'm pretty sure any sound held long enough will cause psychological disturbance, quite apart from slight pitch inaccuracy. Most intervals in equal temperament (i.e. the vast majority of music we hear) are way more than a few cents off their just equivalents. Most are over 10. Some approach 20.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:10 pm

cron wrote:
zethus909 wrote:only those who can detect the most minute differences in tone will have this problem...a few cents off, two tones, for a prolonged period of time, will drive you crazy....depending on the tone, and exact relationship....it's not a rule, but it is a real effect.
I'm pretty sure any sound held long enough will cause psychological disturbance, quite apart from slight pitch inaccuracy. Most intervals in equal temperament (i.e. the vast majority of music we hear) are way more than a few cents off their just equivalents. Most are over 10. Some approach 20.

What do you mean? In equal temperament, each half-tone is 100 cents apart. That's why it's called "equal" temperament. An octave has 1200 cents. 10 cents will be perceived as a "chorused" sound (it's pretty much my standard detune for oscillators - sometimes i even go up to 13 cents).

I think "disturbing" sound has more to do with the psychological profile of each of us. For example, for me a phone ringing is really stressful, yet I saw people that can work peacefully with the phone ringing right at their side, for many minutes.

But Ligeti music definitely is NOT in the distress category for me.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:38 pm

EG: 12tET major 3rd is 13.69 cents sharper than 5/4...

Then, via the harmonic series: no. 13 (13/8) is 41 cents sharper than min.6th; no. 11 is 49 cents flatter than b5/#11...

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:47 pm

phone ringing sets me on edge, period, also repeated beeps such the science oven when it's done.

guy said min.9th is "super hyper dissonant" here t'other day but in itself,

and I need more than the interval in the abstract to judge. Tone...

cron · Post by **cron** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Yeah, relative to their equivalents in just intonation I mean. In the electronic music world, FM synthesis shows off the disparity fairly well. Even the well behaved intervals under ET induce beating sounds if you modulate say, a C with the G above it, as opposed to a C with a frequency exactly 3/2 above it.

Totally with you on the psychological and familiarity elements btw. Ligeti, and indeed most sounds, don't disturb me either. Chion's ideas about 'reduced listening' etc...

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:28 pm

cron wrote:Yeah, relative to their equivalents in just intonation I mean. In the electronic music world, FM synthesis shows off the disparity fairly well. Even the well behaved intervals under ET induce beating sounds if you modulate say, a C with the G above it, as opposed to a C with a frequency exactly 3/2 above it.

Ah, yes, I got it. Indeed, the ET scale has all the intervals "adjusted" (means, out of tune) in regards to a just intonation scale. That's necessary to allow free transposition to any tonality, even distant ones (in just intonation, these would sound horribly out of tune).

Having grown in a ET world (I never played a string instrument, for example) I think I'm used to that though. But if a violinist have to play with the piano, he/she better adjust the intonation with it, otherwise things may get really ugly. This is the "bad" dissonance, I think

In things like FM, you better use pure ratios, otherwise you will have really nasty sounds (unless you want these, of course).

zethus909 · Post by **zethus909** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:56 am

ratios are numbers, numbers are just labels. you tune it by ear. the number that it ends up being, is a label

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:10 am

Jeez but you talk an awful lot of crap

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:31 am

For instance, this is a plugins/DAW forum. So lookit, I'm writing pitchbend in Cubase's controller lane: I know its resolution is 8192 steps. 0 (just a label!) to 4096 +/-.
So now the max. deviation, the interval (+/- 2 semitones by default generally) you want divides into 4096 & we know exactly what to indicate.
Now, I do a LOT of cute things in here even as I (a lot of which because I) have an extremely fine sense of pitch. Some things are unpredictable and need extra attention. And I may exceed 12tET. Knowing is good!

So you can remain in the dark and boldly say some shit as you like it, but quit advising it, show some restraint FFS.

Is dissonance bad?