Fantastic scale & chord site

[jancivil]

I hadn't considered the problem of the upper octaves not displaying the full chord - easy to check the octave below if you know what the answer should be...

Not sure what you mean, but in the keyboard display there is no 13th in any of the 'add13' chords on Bb, period. And again, there is no call for the word 'add' there in most if not all of those cases. I'm not sure the group is all that interested in the explanation and I'm tired, so good night.

[trewq]

As a first step, i added the choice :
- to display both names : C#/Db D#/Eb etc
- or to display a more concise (but not correct) arbitrary choice : C# Eb F# G# Bb
I have to test before publication. But it can previewed here :
http://test.chords.jpglomot.com / menu 'options' / Choice 'Sharp/Flat display'
Constructive advices welcome!

The choice of sharps or flats is a common menu option. It can be coded to switch ok for the major scales and modes, but not so easily for the others.

[Musical Gym]

Cool, are there plans to make it a desktop pc app?

[JeanPhi]

. It can be coded to switch ok for the major scales and modes, but not so easily for the others.

Hi trewq. I do not understand why

[JeanPhi]

Cool, are there plans to make it a desktop pc app?

I 'll try to port some functionalities in Android apps for the beginning of 2017. No plan now for a desktop application. If you want to use it on a desktop pc (or mac) without connection you may try the "save as" option of your browser (?)

[Musical Gym]

Cool, are there plans to make it a desktop pc app?

I 'll try to port some functionalities in Android apps for the beginning of 2017. No plan now for a desktop application. If you want to use it on a desktop pc (or mac) without connection you may try the "save as" option of your browser (?)

That seems to work great, thanks!

[JumpingJackFlash]

No. I think I will continue.

Ok then, so you have a lot of things to sort out first.
Just going through the basic major and minor triads:

C# major is incorrectly spelt with an F rather than an E#
Eb minor is incorrectly spelt with an F# rather than a Gb
F minor is incorrectly spelt with a G# rather than an Ab
F# major is incorrectly spelt with a Bb rather than an A#
G# minor is incorrectly spelt with a Eb rather than a D#
Bb minor is incorrectly spelt with a C# rather than a Db
B major is incorrectly spelt with an Eb rather than a D#

And that's just the basic stuff.
There is no "choice" here; there is a right way to spell things and a wrong way.
(That means, of just the major and minor triads, you have over 29% of them spelt incorrectly. Would you want to be taught something by someone who gets at least 29% of things wrong?).
If you're presenting this as an educational tool, you need to get it right. Teaching something wrong is incredibly irresponsible, and will, as I said before, do more harm than good.

[.jon]

No. I think I will continue.

Ok then, so you have a lot of things to sort out first.
Just going through the basic major and minor triads:

C# major is incorrectly spelt with an F rather than an E#
Eb minor is incorrectly spelt with an F# rather than a Gb
F minor is incorrectly spelt with a G# rather than an Ab
F# major is incorrectly spelt with a Bb rather than an A#
G# minor is incorrectly spelt with a Eb rather than a D#
Bb minor is incorrectly spelt with a C# rather than a Db
B major is incorrectly spelt with an Eb rather than a D#

And that's just the basic stuff.
There is no "choice" here; there is a right way to spell things and a wrong way.
(That means, of just the major and minor triads, you have over 29% of them spelt incorrectly. Would you want to be taught something by someone who gets at least 29% of things wrong?).
If you're presenting this as an educational tool, you need to get it right. Teaching something wrong is incredibly irresponsible, and will, as I said before, do more harm than good.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in 2016 with spelling the chords with their actual note names instead of retarded imaginary names based on just intonation, practically non-existent in modern music or instruments.

JeanPhi,

don't mind these no-lifers, your site is very practical and helpful as chord reference.

[JumpingJackFlash]

There's absolutely nothing wrong in 2016 with spelling the chords with their actual note names

That is what I am advocating; using their actual note names.

... instead of retarded imaginary names based on just intonation, practically non-existent in modern music or instruments.

Just intonation (or otherwise) has nothing to do with it.
As for "imaginary names", I have no idea what you're talking about. Gb is just as "real" as F#. - Did you "learn" from the Internet by any chance?

Look, at the end of the day, a spelling is either right or it's wrong. Spelling it wrong is fine if it's just you doing it for your own purposes, but it's not acceptable when used as a tool to teach others.

And now that the error has been pointed out, if you persist, you're not only going to cause confusion, you're doing it deliberately. That actually suggests malice to me.

Sorry if that offends, but I'm thinking of the innocent and naive young student here, stumbling across a site like this and following what it says. Might help in the short term, but a few years down the road when they want to work with other musicians, or maybe even sit an exam of some sort, they're going to be handicapped because they have learnt incorrectly. And this makes learning it properly much harder than it otherwise would have been. A lot of students have come to me full of rubbish they've picked up from the Internet; trying to sort it out and correct all their misunderstandings makes things needlessly complicated. Before they can learn any more they have to first go back and re-learn things they thought they had mastered. This can even create resentment and put them off learning further.

I respect your goal, and I'm sure your intentions are good. I'll even help if you're willing to listen, but there is absolutely no excuse in 2016 to harm people by presenting incorrect information as fact.
Spelling B major with a D# (for example) is not hard; just get it right.

Would you send your (hypothetical) child to an English teacher who didn't even know the difference between "they're", "there" and "their"? (Or who claimed there wasn't any need to bother with correct spelling in this day and age?) I certainly wouldn't.

[.jon]

Yes, just intonation has everything to do with it, E# is not F in it, and that is the origin of this spelling convention.

In equal temperament they are the same pitch, which is what matters here and now. Spelling F as E# is pointless, the note you play on the keys is F no matter how much you whine about it.

If you want to write notes on paper, please go ahead and spell them however you like, it's irrelevant for this application.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Yes, just intonation has everything to do with it, E# is not F in it, and that is the origin of this spelling convention.

E# is not F period. Never has been and never will be.
E# is the mediant of C# major and the leading note of F# major (for example). F-natural is foreign to both of those keys.
F on the other hand is the mediant of Db major and the leading note of Gb major. E# is foreign to both of those keys.

Spelling C# major with an F is just as incorrect as spelling Db major with an E#.

You might have difficulty accepting E# as a note, but it exists whether you like it or not. It is no less a note than F-natural is. It depends on context which one is used.

Besides, we aren't just talking about this one little quirk here but basic fundamental stuff like the spelling of B major (D# is correct, Eb is wrong).

the note you play on the keys is F no matter how much you whine about it.

No, it's not. Not necessarily anyway. In some contexts it is E#.

Just as how in some contexts, the black note you play is D# and in other contexts it is Eb.
The same key has several different (equally correct) names.

And this isn't purely a theoretical thing. If I'm sight-reading a piece, seeing a D# (for example) as an accidental tells me certain things about the piece, whereas seeing Eb tells me other things (which might influence how I play it). It may indicate a certain harmony, a modulation or just give me some information about the general direction of the piece. Such information is useful to any experienced performer.

And I'm not getting into a discussion of temperament here (it's been done countless times before on KVR). As I said, it's a different issue. But it is worth bearing in mind that in practice, not everyone always uses equal temperament even now. Singers and unfretted string players in certain contexts for example. If they see E# and recognise it as a leading note (in F#), they might very well play it differently that they would if they saw an F with no discernible context. As I said, that information can be important.

[jancivil]

Yes, just intonation has everything to do with it, E# is not F in it, and that is the origin of this spelling convention.

In equal temperament they are the same pitch, which is what matters here and now. Spelling F as E# is pointless, the note you play on the keys is F no matter how much you whine about it.

If you want to write notes on paper, please go ahead and spell them however you like, it's irrelevant for this application.

Because you don't grasp the point of proper spelling doesn't mean there is no point. If a person wants to become conversant with keys, just for starters, one will want to have a good basis. You're arguing the newb remain in the dark about the very bases for the language of music.

If we heed your idiot advice, we'll end up in an incoherent mess right quick.
Let alone that the meanings of the notes in harmonies/aka chords will be severely restricted. You like where you reside in the dark, fine, but don't expect to advise it's the way to go and expect no resistance.

Also, your basic contention is inaccurate. It is true that E# and F are the same piano key, but string and wind players intone according to key and have been trained to for centuries now. As a point of fact for the DAW crowd, VSL for instance supports scala (as long as it's 12 to the octave) so that the orchestra writer* has the best chance at the most musical result.

{*: ie., a musician that has lived in the world of orchestral instruments or at least understands from intonation - from intonation issues - and the musicality of expert instrumentalists' intonation. IE: in an ensemble there is the marked tendency to adjust, to move to a better concord than 12tET affords. It isn't necessarily just intonation (or a particular JI set) but the principle essentially derives from it.

Wind players additionally have the basic issue of the instrument built, eg., on F/Bb/Eb etc. 'Bb Trumpet' means that the open tones (the un-stopped/-valved notes on a valve trumpet or trombone for instance) carry (overtone series) from the fundamental Bb.

So, the orch. composer knows her way around this, not just in terms of what to write on paper but what we hear, so the DAW orchestrator works in terms of best practices amounting to more convincing virtual renderings regardless of 'writing it out'.}

And, you may be ignorant of this as well, but people that study music do tend to work from notes on staves even today. It's not like you ignorami have fully taken over yet.


I love how you pre-emptively ad hom everyone that would insist on correct spellings ("no-lifers") and now arguing the point is "whining" no less. One supposes everybody with more interest than the rank dilettante (at best) is equally a "no-lifer" as well. Real mature.

[jancivil]

No. I think I will continue.

Ok then, so you have a lot of things to sort out first.
Just going through the basic major and minor triads:

C# major is incorrectly spelt with an F rather than an E#
Eb minor is incorrectly spelt with an F# rather than a Gb
F minor is incorrectly spelt with a G# rather than an Ab
F# major is incorrectly spelt with a Bb rather than an A#
G# minor is incorrectly spelt with a Eb rather than a D#
Bb minor is incorrectly spelt with a C# rather than a Db
B major is incorrectly spelt with an Eb rather than a D#

And that's just the basic stuff.
There is no "choice" here; there is a right way to spell things and a wrong way.

That's pretty bad. I clicked on a fair number of the chords on Bb (displayed A# as far as I saw anything on staves) and I tho't the keyboard display pretty cool until 13 was no location and now 3rd of Bb minor is C#, at which point I bailed.

The dev. has no business making such a thing with a lack of basics, the question 'is A# for Bb really a concrete issue for a musician' is the end for me.

[jancivil]

If you want to write notes on paper, please go ahead and spell them however you like, it's irrelevant for this application.

REALLY? So, this app is for what exactly? Someone wants the computer to do their work for them and, let's give a concrete example, build a major 7th on C#. So, is C# F Ab C just a-ok? The next major 7th, now that we've established that C# to C is a major 7th, how will this one appear on this POS? But this one does D Gb A C#. The person will never actually grasp what the intervals even are (those with that grasp will laugh and quit out of it). These examples should seem extreme, but I'm not even reaching for in extremis in order to emboss the point, this isn't worse than JJF's investigation actually revealed.

So, this is for what exactly? People that have no time for the very least effort towards musicianship? Lazy no-account individuals in a blazing hurry to slap together 'music' product?
How does the shoddy result of this app intersect with the world, dot jon. You've advised his guy he doesn't need non-life-havers to get in his way, so you at least would ensure it remains slipshod.

I would think the dipshits that proceed as per the above already have some thing more direct than an internet app to save them from the pain of work and the tedium of knowledge. So, please explain what need this will fill. I thought it was kinda fun until half of it was wrong.

EDIT:

your site is very practical and helpful as chord reference.

Have you ever used an actual reference? If this is really how you are, you'd be fine with inaccuracy and mistakes every literate person will catch you on. JJF went so far as to think your posts were malicious. Either that or you're fine with being intellectually crippled.

[Musical Gym]

Keep up the great work!