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Virtual rig - OS X Snow Leopard, Lion or wait for the mountain animal?

Configure and optimize you computer for Audio.

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Compyfox
KVRAF
 
11118 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:30 am Virtual rig - OS X Snow Leopard, Lion or wait for the mountain animal?

I've read a couple of threads in here regarding Snow Leopard vs. Lion in terms of compatibility, stability and system usage. And I do have a couple of Q's myself.

I'm not new to Mac OS, but I'm actually new to installing and maintaining one - back in IT days, we only had Windows and some rare Linux rigs, but no Mac, hence the interest. Actually I'm interested in running a virtual Mac OS for training purposes and checking out certain software that is Mac only. I do have an Intel Core i7, I've read myself a bit into the "Hackintosh" - yes I do know it's a greyzone, but what the heck, it'll run on a virtual machine anyway. No need to brag about that.


I'm still thinking of what OS "version" to get though.

IIRC, Snow Leopard was 64bit already and it's the last OS by Apple that's available as DVD medium. Lion (I contacted Apple today, and contacted a couple of certified retailers here in town) is only available as USB flash drive or download through the iApp store (Mac software and Snow Leopard only). Which is definitely a major turnoff for me, since I can't get the OS beforehand from the AppStore as PC user.

Then I remember a couple of issues with certain hosts and VSTi. Especially with big names like IKM, even Apple's own host. Or should I simply wait for the Mountain Lion (due summer) and then create a virtual Mac out of that? But what about driver issues, VST/AU compatibility since it's a new OS, etc?


Keep in mind:
My experiences with Macintosh are from way back. OS 9 actually (I still have a G3 that was last active like 3 years ago, for one day!) and partially Tiger/Leopard on G5's and PowerMac's. Recently I worked on a PowerMac with Snow Leopard and Logic 9, but I barely touched the OS in this case.


I really, really want to learn how to handle that OS from scratch again. And may it only be to run Reason 3 on it just for fun and testing.

The main questions still remain:
What OS version to get? And what do I need to consider?


Thanks in advance.
User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
 
1801 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:32 am

Apple wants people to use their OS with their hardware and they do everything they can to make it hard (and if they could, illegal) to run OS X on anything other than a Mac. So, from a practicality standpoint, if it's the Mac system you want to become familiar with, the best choice is to actually run a Mac. Mac Mini will let you get into that with the least cost, compared to the rest, if you want to supply your own display, keyboard and mouse. (you might need an adapter for the display, to go from Mini Display Port to whatever you need, but that's negligible).

If you're looking to learn Mac OS X to be current with the system, you might as well jump in at Lion. The compatibility issues are largely dealt with by now with many software developers (as far as i can see). Why start on anything older than the current release. As for waiting for Mountain Lion, that's not out for a bit yet and then you'll possibly have to wait for the compatibility issues to be dealt with on THAT. So why wait specifically for ML?

i'm only advocating buying a Mac to use Mac OS for the sheer avoidance of technical nonsense. If you want to know the system, get to know it natively, rather than as part of a hack. Why make things harder for yourself if you can afford the cost of a proper Mac?

That's my opinion.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
qube123
KVRist
 
168 posts since 12 Mar, 2010, from Leeds, UK

Postby qube123; Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:02 pm

Wouldn't bother with Hackintosh, it's interesting but a nightmare for stability and hassle to get working, and that's before you start sticking software on it.

As for SL vs L, I'd use SL for the time being, the extra features of the new OS are a bit 'Meh' and there are still quite a few plugs and software that doesn't work yet. ML is likely to add more features and increase the iOS'ness of OSX but it's probably going to be built on L so will be as compatible/incompatible as that is.
User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
 
1801 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:50 pm

qube123 wrote:Wouldn't bother with Hackintosh, it's interesting but a nightmare for stability and hassle to get working, and that's before you start sticking software on it.

As for SL vs L, I'd use SL for the time being, the extra features of the new OS are a bit 'Meh' and there are still quite a few plugs and software that doesn't work yet. ML is likely to add more features and increase the iOS'ness of OSX but it's probably going to be built on L so will be as compatible/incompatible as that is.


Not necessarily as compatible. Apple is removing more of the older APIs (carbon).
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
qube123
KVRist
 
168 posts since 12 Mar, 2010, from Leeds, UK

Postby qube123; Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:58 pm

Oh I'd not read that, thanks.
simonden
KVRist
 
320 posts since 19 Jul, 2011, from Right Here, Right Now

Postby simonden; Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:38 am

I have upgraded my iMac with Snow Leopard to a (older - but more powerful) Mac Pro which came with Lion.

Had no problems (so far) and was so impressed with Lion, I even upgraded the iMac (which now belongs to the GF) to Lion.

Lion seems more compatible (hardware wise) to me. The M-Audio ProjectMix I/O was very hit and miss on Snow Leopard and now works flawlesly on Lion. Also the problems I was having with the Kore controller have also completely dissapeared.

Memory management seems a lot better on Lion and I actually like Launchpad!

Software wise - all my studio software installed, even the old Native Instruments PPC apps worked first time with their 'Leopard Installer' (except one of the really old Intakt apps that wasn't seen by the installer - but no biggy as Kontakt Player has superceeded it).

CompyFox - You are in Germany so no Grey area, providing that you buy a full retail version of OSX, I now have a full retail DVD of Snow Leopard going cheap if you PM me - like I said - I am not going back!
Say NO to developers who ignore the law!
Compyfox
KVRAF
 
11118 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:07 am

Jace-BeOS wrote:Apple wants people to use their OS with their hardware and they do everything they can to make it hard (and if they could, illegal) to run OS X on anything other than a Mac.


qube123 wrote:Wouldn't bother with Hackintosh, it's interesting but a nightmare for stability and hassle to get working, and that's before you start sticking software on it.


Again, I won't install it on a blank Intel rig, I will use it in a virtual machine to get to know it better again. Much less trouble.


Jace-BeOS wrote:So, from a practicality standpoint, if it's the Mac system you want to become familiar with, the best choice is to actually run a Mac. Mac Mini will let you get into that with the least cost, compared to the rest, if you want to supply your own display, keyboard and mouse. (you might need an adapter for the display, to go from Mini Display Port to whatever you need, but that's negligible).


I heartly concour in this case. A Mac Mini is still like 500-600bucks over here. For this money I can get a PC will all bells an whistles that is more powerful, easier to maintain. And I can go into a random store and pickup a new OS rather than be forced to upgrade "online only" since Apple does, like you said, everything to keep their customers in check and bound to their "locked" hardware (example: try to upgrade an iPhone hardware wise compared to a HTC).

I won't rant on it too much, but it's BS to be forced to have at least SL in order to upgrade to Lion or else buy a full version of Lion on a USB flash drive. Heck even the Premium Reseller(! great name) I contacted offered me a download from one of their Macs with the store installed. But then they were like "But Apple needs to authorize a medium (DVD or USB drive) in order for you to pick up the download". What the funk? :nutter:


Jace-BeOS wrote:i'm only advocating buying a Mac to use Mac OS for the sheer avoidance of technical nonsense. If you want to know the system, get to know it natively, rather than as part of a hack. Why make things harder for yourself if you can afford the cost of a proper Mac?


I do have my reasons not to go for the hardware but still get familiar with the OS (money involved being one, ease of upgrading being another one, the "force" to be online and/or DRM yet another one). And a virtual machine is just as legal. Like simonden said, in the EU the EULA is a bit different. I've also digged up a couple of posts regarding the so called "Hackintosh" on the web where Apple confirmed that it's legal as long as: a) you have a legit copy of the OS, b) you don't sell it and keep it to yourself (aka personal use only!) and c) you'll loose support of course.

Finally something I can work with Apple's "sworn-in" family. If it doesn't work, it's my fault, no? I can't damage much - it's a virtual machine after all.


simonden wrote:Lion seems more compatible (hardware wise) to me. The M-Audio ProjectMix I/O was very hit and miss on Snow Leopard and now works flawlesly on Lion. Also the problems I was having with the Kore controller have also completely dissapeared.


Oh yes, I do remember that at the audio engineering academy I've been to. Leopard and Snow Leopard always refused to work with M-Audio hardware, even hung the OS. Good one. :dog:


simonden wrote:Software wise - all my studio software installed, even the old Native Instruments PPC apps worked first time with their 'Leopard Installer' (except one of the really old Intakt apps that wasn't seen by the installer - but no biggy as Kontakt Player has superceeded it).


I thought Lion cut the PPC emulation mode?


simonden wrote:CompyFox - You are in Germany so no Grey area, providing that you buy a full retail version of OSX, I now have a full retail DVD of Snow Leopard going cheap if you PM me - like I said - I am not going back!


I'll think about it and get back to you. Thanks.



Anyway... looks like, as with every other board I've seen this question pops up, the "Mac users" are still a bit picky on that topic. So I'll drop it. I thank you anyway for participating and to back to the actual Mac threads to find out the pro/cons of Snow Leopard and Lion. And there still seem to be many.
penguinfromdeep
KVRAF
 
1635 posts since 18 Nov, 2008

Postby penguinfromdeep; Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:21 am

does Lion even work on a virtual machine? What does it mean anyway? I thought the performance hit would be considerate in a virtual machine if you can even get it to run
Developers! Developers! Your plug-ins should be circuit modeled!!! It's the shizzz! Also don't forget oversampling & 0dfb filters!
simonden
KVRist
 
320 posts since 19 Jul, 2011, from Right Here, Right Now

Postby simonden; Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:31 am

Compyfox wrote:
simonden wrote:Software wise - all my studio software installed, even the old Native Instruments PPC apps worked first time with their 'Leopard Installer' (except one of the really old Intakt apps that wasn't seen by the installer - but no biggy as Kontakt Player has superceeded it).


I thought Lion cut the PPC emulation mode?


It did - but with the NI stuff, it is only the installer that was PPC - the apps inside the installer are not. Their 'Leopard installer' just creates a new installer which works fine in Lion. Got B4 II, Spektral Delay and Vokoder all working fine in Lion with the Leopard Installer.
Say NO to developers who ignore the law!
Compyfox
KVRAF
 
11118 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:00 am

penguinfromdeep wrote:does Lion even work on a virtual machine?[/quoote]

According to test articles I've read and several YT video's I've seen - yes it does.

penguinfromdeep wrote:What does it mean anyway?


VMware, VirtualBox, MS Windows Virtual Machine and the likes. They all offer "virtua machines" within a running OS. Example: Linux "within" Windows Vista or the other way around. See it like Sandbox where you also run a program within an enclosed environment.

penguinfromdeep wrote:I thought the performance hit would be considerate in a virtual machine if you can even get it to run


I see it similar as with video games or certain tools on either personal computer. The stronger the rig, the more finetuned the settings, the better the performance. You only know how good it performs on your rig if you test it.
qube123
KVRist
 
168 posts since 12 Mar, 2010, from Leeds, UK

Postby qube123; Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:34 am

From a license POV whether running native or as a VM you have to run it on a Mac.

Agree about the download thing, I bought the USB drive copy, can be installed without any prior OS on the machine.

If you can run an un-hacked copy of OSX on your PC as a VM then do it, don't know how well that would perform as a DAW though.
Alfalfa
KVRian
 
501 posts since 27 Mar, 2002, from Utah, USA

Postby Alfalfa; Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:06 am

I installed Snow Leopard on VMWare Player using a number of guides like this one: http://www.sysprobs.com/fresh-snow-leop ... tel-amd-pc

and tonymac's edit of VMWare. I thought it would be a good way to see if I liked the OS. I bought the Snow Leopard disk at a store. Last night, in one of those articles, I discovered how to get it showing in the full screen, so it looks like I'm running a Mac. As a virtual machine (running like a program within Windows 7) performance is not what it would be normally, but it does give me the opportunity to see what the OS feels like, how it operates, etc.

Final Cut Pro X trial won't open up because the graphics in the virtual layer are not good enough for the program. I had hoped to try it out.

It's nice, because stores don't like to let you spend the time you need to really see if you like the OS. Also, friends treat their Macs like the holy grail you're about to break if you spend too much time on them.

For me, it's been great, because I don't think I'll be buying a Mac. There are some things I like better, but it's only of a marginal nature, and for all I know, I'll prefer Windows 8. And whenever I have the urge, I can load up Snow Leopard in VMWare Player, surf the web, and feel like I'm using a Mac. For training purposes, I think it could serve you well.
User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
 
1801 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America

Postby Jace-BeOS; Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:58 am

i'm not picky about who runs what on what hardware, Mac or not. i just hate technical stuff these days and want to eliminate as much of it as possible. So that's why i advised the Mac hardware route. Your points are all perfectly sensible to me, it's just not a way for me, personally, to work.

Also, great to hear that Lion and M-Audio stuff is working well together. i have a couple M-Audio devices (ProjectMix i/o) and i'm planning to migrate to Mac entirely. Currently i'm on Snow Leopard on my Macbooks. Hearing that Snow Leopard had issues with the M-Audio devices is a bit frustrating to hear, but at least i can afford the OS upgrade (unlike fecking Microsoft's INSANE $200 upgrade for Win7; screw that).
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
Compyfox
KVRAF
 
11118 posts since 18 Oct, 2003, from Berlin, Germany

Postby Compyfox; Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:55 pm

At least Microsoft doesn't screw you all over every half to full year for a dot update with certain tools running sometimes worse than before or more and more "iOS" like features. And you're not forced to be online (which seems to the the future: for videogames, studio software, video editing, regular computer usage, etc, etc, etc). :shrug:


You still don't need to hack anything one way or another. To my knowledge, the Tonymac bootloader basically is a bootdisk that cuts away terminal codes. See it as installer like Windows - plug it in, start away. Or like 3rd party bundle packs with system updates. It's as legal as boot disks for videogame consoles to run international versions (at least back in the day - nowadays, region codes are a non issue on certain systems). I've even seen install videos on YT with full versions of OSX where there was no bootdisk needed - just the right commands and it was running flawlessly in virtual machines.


I don't expect a miracle. But I'm kind of sick of Apple's additude. Especially with the "we're better in everything we do". Yet I have severe issues in just getting a darn upgrade disk, or the whole "iApp store" thing. Or I have to shell out a fortune for just a simple hardware add on/upgrade. Innovative or not, but Apple is not the center of the universe.

Then again, I don't want to shell out a fortune just to get to know that thing better in order to work better at other studios or the environments of my clients. Like I said it before - I think I'll just drop this topic and do my own tests.

Thanks anyway.
monkeymanx
KVRian
 
595 posts since 12 Aug, 2005

Postby monkeymanx; Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:38 pm

The license is for use on "Apple Branded Hardware". My PC case now has the sticker on it that came with my SL disc. Looks like it's been branded to me.

Virtual machine is probably alright for doing less intense stuff. It would be like taking a tour of the OS. You could always just buy a separate HDD or partition one to set up a dual boot. That is what I have going now.

As far as stability, well... I'm on 10.7.3 with no problems. Even used the regular update from the apple site. Also, this machine bench marks in Mac OS X up near the actual 8 core Mac pros. It is a over clocked 2600k.

I guess the success really depends on your hardware. Mine works great but that doesn't mean yours will.
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