You don't like the Kaosspad? Or did i misspell it?

No, the part that computers have too high latency for live use.
Baloney!

Trollwar incoming. How about all the "facts" posted are followed by an argument answering "why". Also please think outside the box, your universe, your way of working.

Alright, round one! *bell rings*

ive worked with soundmen who delay-align the mains to the latency of the drums distance etc. theres all sorts of latency on a live stage.

with autotune i either mix it in a little so then its like doubling so 4ms latency isnt an issue or i mix it louder then the source and it sounds fine then too.

for reverb send its also not a problem.


but if latency was a disqualifier for live applications then marching bands couldn't exist, and obviously they do.

I'm sure the x ms = y ft. thing has been posted a hundred times in various discussions on this site. As have various factoids about how many ms. delay is detectable by human senses.

From clubs to stadiums, computers are used with live audio, and that's a fact, so why say that latency issues make them unusable?

Yeaah, sound travels at about 330 m/sec so 1 metre equates to about 3 milliseconds. In the real world that means that you're getting mebbe 5ms latency from your floor monitor when you're stood right over it. Oh, the humanity! How do live musicians cope?

The V-Machine might be an option for those lightweight freebie plugins, but buy one for what it can do now, not for whatever promises they make for future functionality.

well, i got an alesis wedge for reverb, didn't do the computer experiment yet. v machine, well, i don't know it just sounds like a lot of hassle and a probable disappointment. the compatibility list is tiny, i wouldn't want to get one on the off chance it works with my software.

but the kaoss pad is a great suggestion, the newest kp mini looks about right for what i need.

someone asked about the price of the rs7000? i got it for £240. Well worth the price. Got another live show next week, it's really liberated my music and given it somewhere more interesting to go

omfg ... that's sooo cheap! it used to be £1630 when it was new!
I have some special love for that unit.. the one that got away

latency becomes a major issue if you're playing live and listening to the audio directly for feedback into your playing.

for example playing varied swings and expression/bends.

it's very difficult to know ahead of time exactly how much you want to bend unless you're very familiar with the range.

you'll find though that latency is not important at all if you unplug your headphones / monitors and just play directly.

a little difficult with a keyboard controlling a synth, sure. you could try using a small sound module connected to the controller keyboard and plug your headphones into that while playing. then listen to the result after quantize before doing another take.

there are radically different ways of playing or recording a take and latency is going to matter in some and not at all in others.

if you're trying to do real-time performance using entirely software obviously it's going to matter a huge amount. you're not going to be able to time your bends exactly to that swing beat if you can't hear what's going on until the next bar. you need more like 1ms-5ms to handle that kind of thing.

it becomes an issue though where the price is so significant to deal with the latency issue that it becomes often more practical to just buy a piece of hardware that does what you want instead.

RME and MOTU interfaces easily get down to usable latency levels

it isn't all in the interface. you might also want a portable system (laptop, on battery) that can run ten instances of (<insert latest cpu blowing software here>) that can do what you want it to do while still maintaining low latency.

then it becomes a cpu issue. a power supply issue. all sorts of other issues.

that sort of killer laptop is still way more expensive than the same system in pc form. the reason for that should be obvious. (no battery?)

then it comes to live performance issues - how many usb hubs and interfaces do you want to dangle out in every direction?

it gets to the point where it's just more practical to use the hardware out there.

my point in saying that isn't to say "don't bother trying to do it", it's "don't come complaining about the price".

we all see laptops being used live nightly on tv shows and concerts, its commonplace now.

for my windsynth im currently using a fairly ordinary consumer thinkpad edge e520 with a roland quad-capture to run my setup:

http://soundcloud.com/tonyostinato/passionflutewiviflymetoth emoon

on that song im doing all the brass and flutes using wivi and passion flute, with the midi harmonizer chorder patched in so i can play the full section parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T29uWWjmCI

thats an older setup description, most of that still applies but now that i have more power ive added kontakt and a bunch of kontakt instruments and the nicer ND congas have replaced those wizoo ones.

laptops are fun live!

That was not a troll. Just an opinion from a pro.

Remember these things:
-The issue is not latency on it's own, but combined with non-delayed signals.
-USB devices are slooow
-you get double the USB latency if you use the computer as an effects box
-dedicated live effects processors like the Kaosspad are trouble free and cheap
-you CAN build a computer system for effects, but it will cost so much that it's waaay cheaper to buy dedicated hardware. Easier to carry along too.
-some effects are ok with a bit of latency.. no prob


Well that's exactly what i said too. They are not used as effects devices, but sound sources. And this topic was not about sound sources but effects.


And this is a midi controller setup? Computer works as a sound source?


Yes they are! I made my first computer aided live gigs in 2002. I've used several programs and setups since. Cubase, Renoise, Ableton Live, laptops, desktops, hw-synths, samplers, hw-effects. The most i've liked has been the Kaosspad. Instant fun and very easy to control live. Also Ableton Live is fun, even back in 2004, v1.0 or something. Worked like a charm from the very sluggish laptop and with midi-control.

The latency difference might be a genre issue too. If doing EDM there's no room for sluggish timing. Marching bands have much more dynamic sound and don't suffer from such latency effects.


Try it for yourself. Put two simple drumbeats playing and delay the other one. At which ms amount you start to hear a difference? Then calculate your cheapo usb-audiocards latency.

my first computer on gigs started in '83, an apple //e running a decillionix sampler card.

i always remember one girl yelling from the crowd "theyre using a computer to do all the music" and getting all nuts and after the show i found her and took her back and showed her all you could do was 5 conga sounds which were quite short. you could also load in other sounds but nothing like being able to "do all the music".

yep those demos there are all self contained virtual, although i run a lot of effects inside that.



i did use the laptop for autotune and reverb one night before i got the v-machines to do that, and there were no complaints.

the v-machines and the laptop sounded the same as far as latency so the numbers can't be too wildly off.

anyways you must be gettin one very tight sound live, i wish i could hear that.

thing about autotune is any version you run, even the hardware box they make, is gonna come in close in latency numbers because it takes at least a quarter cycle to calculate the pitch so essentially every time you hear autotune on a live act youre hearing some latency. its an effect where that doesn't matter so much. plus i like to run 4 autotunes im not sure how many kaos can supply.


i know there are people out there using laptop audio fx on foh and guitars etc, so its just a matter of time for them to all get boo'd off the stage and then there won't be anymore.

haven't seen that happen yet but its inevitable, right?

another thing thats doomed to failure is guitar amps, i dont know if anyones noticed but some of them distort the sound!!

i just remember all those swing bands that couldnt play to close or too far away from that back wall of the stage or the ceiling and even the floor because the latency from all of those reflecting back would throw off the swing and the bends.

sorry to kid you so much, i applaud that you have high standards and i hope that pays what its worth but id be wary about being disappointed when the majority blows all that off, laptops and computers in live audio are here to stay is my view. if anything its the low standards that rule in music atm.

Heh no prob. Enjoyed reading it
And i admit being a bit anal about it.. but you do save a lot of grief and money by getting a dedicated box to do the job. For some people a thing like Kaosspad won't do much(pitch correction ;D ), but for the instance mentioned here(and dare i say most live situations) there's no sense in trying to build a working system from a computer.

Btw. midi controlled hw effect boxes from the past years are very cheap 2nd hand. Would be a good option too if you already have midi. I haven't followed the market for such new devices lately though, might be good ones there too.