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Key changing/chord progressions to differnt song parts

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3623 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:31 pm

Rhythm. The heart of rock and roll is the beat, Same with other popular forms of music.
kcisANDderit
KVRist
 
435 posts since 20 Nov, 2010, from stuck in transition

Postby kcisANDderit; Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:44 pm

cj31387 wrote:True, but a lot of people consider songs in major keys usually good, and when people make songs in major keys that are really good they are somewhat similar to other good songs and follow rules I want to know.


consider that Martin Gore (Depeche Mode) has had a lot of success writing songs only in minor keys. He has never written a song in a major key, it doesn't work for him

Yeah analysis is what i really would want to focus on, What parts of music theory would i need to learn to effectively analyze any song? I know notation for sure, which I'm going to learn asap, but what other things should i focus on to be a great song analyzer? Thanks


if you exclude classical, jazz and eastern music there is really not a whole lot to learn. you probably already know most of it on a practical level. Now you need to form some theoretical notions which will help you make sense of it all. Theory always follows practice

nothing personal (I don't know you anyway), but I would not suggest doing this on your own by visiting websites. You'll learn a lot faster and more efficiently by taking a course at a local college. you need some knowledgeable feedback on exercises and such. the first two levels of any typical theory/harmony course should be enough for your stated purpose

here's a rant on my own experience and my 2 cents on all this...

all of my music studies in college and grad school have helped me to enjoy music more as a listener, performer and composer. i'm glad for all of it

I listen to and enjoy many diverse styles of western music from classical to dubstep (and there's a whole lot in between). I analyze all of it on one level or another, BUT only after enjoying it as a listener first

all the stuff I listen to can find its way into my own music, it's inevitable and it happens to every composer. There are no truly original artists out there. Everybody borrows from everybody else

To me, it's a huge benefit to be able to understand the music I love on a theoretical level...BUT...i don't think of it that way when i'm composing. I plunk out notes on my guitar or midi controller until I hear something I like. once the initial riff/melody/rhythm or whatever is in place I might look at it analytically in order to help fill out the arrangement

the structure of music, verse/chorus and all that sort of stuff, is also something you need to study (it's called form and analysis in many schools). take apart you're favorite songs and learn from them on that level too

when you understand the music you love on deeper levels you will find it creeping into your own music more and more but you will add your own personal touch. don't over think it, let it "flow" from you when composing. if you try to force it it will be mere imitation. that's what happens to me anyway

(in case you're curious, you can find some of my music here on kvr by searching the music cafe)

One last bit of advice... Don't ever believe that complexity equals greatness. Some of the simplest music out there has moved masses of people for generations (pop and otherwise). I don't know if you like classical music, but even many of those composers have been great lovers of folk music (simple stuff) such that they used it in their own work

good luck!
cj31387
KVRist
 
205 posts since 14 Mar, 2008

Postby cj31387; Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:07 pm

I totally agree that complexity doesn't mean great, KISS, keep it simple stupid, has made more hits than super complex songs. Thing is I'm so geared towards hands on practical learning through experience, IE working in a daw or on guitar, that I barely absorb anything I read about music theory especially a 400+ page book. Its funny because I've asked for analyzation books in this forum recently because I really want to learn more, I've spent SOOOOOOOO much time developing my own methods I want to start learning from others. No joke 13 years ago when i started guitar i RARELY learned guitar parts for my favorite bands songs, if i did it wasn't the whole song just a couple parts. To this day I have not learned a famous bands song on guitar all the way through and know every part. BUT I literally have made about 1500 songs in 13 years, of my own, a lot crap/ especially when I first started electronic and midi and only using a daw. But now I'm pretty good in that too. But back to how I learn, I'm more a hands on interactive learner, and I found a demo for this program called musition 4 that apparently teaches music theory through the program and has exercises, I think that will work good for me but I don't know how far it really goes and if i should buy it or just read a theory book. Overall I'm happy with my music, but they are not quite hits yet, or I can't even tell because I have not found a singer to work with yet.
D.Josef
KVRist
 
103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012

Postby D.Josef; Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 am

revo11 wrote:The op is interested in pop music. I can't think of a single pop song (tasteful or tasteless) that works as a pop song that isn't structured to work in service of melody. Even more abstract popular music like fennesz, autechre, or more rhythmic centric modern r&B and hip hop is held together by an underlying melodicism. melodies can be hidden in chord voicings or even timbral elements like filter frequencies or sonorous qualities of word choices, it's not always in the form of sinatra belting out something over an arrangement.


You're stating the obvious, given that pop is homphonic, and homophony is "melody supported by chords".

But that does NOT mean that you write the melody first.

You CAN start with the melody, but starting with chords is equally viable. You just need to "sort the melody out" eventually, selecting notes from the chords for the lead voice, adding passing notes, etc.
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3623 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:26 am

Thre are original composers out there but we may never hear them. They are too original and not ear friendly. When listening to music we listen to something we can hold on to. When learning we learn to hold on to something. Hold on to nothing and nothing will be absorbed.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:40 am

cj31387 wrote:
jancivil wrote:there is no formula for 'good'. 'good' is a matter of 'skill', 'craft'. the same device could be great in one person's hands and complete shit in the next person's.


True, but a lot of people consider songs in major keys usually good, and when people make songs in major keys that are really good they are somewhat similar to other good songs and follow rules I want to know.
you asked what, in general makes these good songs particularly happen. the bad songs will have the same amount in common, only someone wasn't any good at it.

you should learn theory whole-hog; getting some principles in your head in a half-baked approach isn't going to do you any good in the long run. it has the effect of taking people away from the reality of music in favor of thinking about it. you won't be making great analyses of music you're not involved with playing at this point, if ever.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:41 am

tapper mike wrote:Thre are original composers out there but we may never hear them. They are too original and not ear friendly. When listening to music we listen to something we can hold on to. When learning we learn to hold on to something. Hold on to nothing and nothing will be absorbed.
speak for yourself. your 'nothing' might be my 'something'. and that it's nothing to you because you didn't encounter it exactly before isn't my problem. so I'm not in your 'we' I don't think. 'not ear friendly', well yours is not the universal ear, and I don't know it's not hostile to something.

historically, 'original' music happened and it gained acceptance or it didn't, just like cookie cutter music. depending.
D.Josef
KVRist
 
103 posts since 6 Feb, 2012

Postby D.Josef; Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:10 pm

There's this weird little joke I read somewhere:
- What's the difference between a rocker and a jazzman?
- A rocker plays 3 chords in front of 10000 people. A jazzman plays 10000 chords in front of 3 people.

While it's somewhat sad and definitely not fair to either rock or jazz, it reflects a lot on the fact that in music, as in other forms of art, sometimes keeping it simple and real helps a lot in reaching the people you wish to reach.
Nystul
KVRist
 
421 posts since 30 Apr, 2007

Postby Nystul; Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:47 pm

D.Josef wrote:There's this weird little joke I read somewhere:
- What's the difference between a rocker and a jazzman?
- A rocker plays 3 chords in front of 10000 people. A jazzman plays 10000 chords in front of 3 people.

While it's somewhat sad and definitely not fair to either rock or jazz, it reflects a lot on the fact that in music, as in other forms of art, sometimes keeping it simple and real helps a lot in reaching the people you wish to reach.


That is pretty funny. Although to be serious, the jazzman who plays more recognizable choruses and less bop solos will probably have more mass appeal regardless of the chords. Which is also a matter of keeping it simple and real.
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3623 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:11 pm

cj if you need a singer to tell whether your music is good you've missed the point all together.

Music should stand on it's own without the need for vocals.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:24 pm

cj31387 wrote:I totally agree that complexity doesn't mean great, KISS has made more hits than super complex songs.
and since all hits have been great music...


that fallacy is known as argumentum ad populum btw.
JJBiener
KVRian
 
939 posts since 26 Nov, 2005

Postby JJBiener; Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:37 pm

jancivil wrote:
cj31387 wrote:I totally agree that complexity doesn't mean great, KISS has made more hits than super complex songs.
and since all hits have been great music...


that fallacy is known as argumentum ad populum btw.


And here I thought it was argumentum ad absurdum.
This space has been unintentionally left blank.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:44 pm

the fallacy there is 'enough of the population liked it therefore it's good'.

which you counter with: "The general public voted for Hitler and likes Coldplay". XD

there is a device known as reductio ad absurdum, reduce to the point of absurdity...

Justice Scalia wrote:If they can fire Olbermann today, who's to say they can't fire broccoli tomorrow?
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:59 pm

D.Josef wrote:You just need to "sort the melody out" eventually, selecting notes from the chords for the lead voice, adding passing notes, etc.
So, where has melody been simply the result of *sorting* notes from chords, and... additions? I'm sure it's been done, but which memorable melodies were done just like this I wonder.
you have 'adding passing notes etc'... what is that? Part-writing? Do you want the parts to work melodically or is it just some sorting routine, such as a puzzle...

I think your 'equally viable' is going to be hard to support. Feel free to show that...
tapper mike
KVRAF
 
3623 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:29 pm

So Jan what's your point?
That people can't decide what's good for them and as such should have no personal choice? Cannabalism is unpopular. Perhaps you would like to share with the huddled masses why we're wrong about that one too.
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