There are a lot of factors that account for design that users of these devices may not be aware of. Like manufacturing design and costs. There are PCB circuit boards that the controllers attach to and these need to be laid out to work with other parts of the hardware resulting in design compromises.

Also, each person is going to have a different preference. It's impossible for them to please everybody.

For example, I put the ribbon controller below the joystick because I personally would use the ribbon often and barely ever use pitch/mod. It would be annoying for me to have to reach over the joystick I barely use to access the ribbon control.

I think either placement of the ribbon (or any controller) is valid because somewhere it will be perfect for someone and not work for someone else. But for a manufacturer, they will go with whatever is cheaper and easiest to deliver the feature. I know this firsthand from working for one. It's all about the bullet point on the package. That's why things sometimes don't make sense to the users, yet make perfect sense from manufacturing perspective.

You are absolutely right on all points, points which I always keep in mind when musing on such topics. Still, I hope that one day, we will see a new take on the pitch/mod wheel design which will incorporate new ideas and be cheap to manufacture.

Ho-hum. I don't think so, Tim. The ribbon-bender IS above the wheels on the Prophecy Was it that long since the last time you saw one?







I see what you mean, but I think it's good to have more controllers rather than all-in-one merged contraption. Gives a biiiit more flexibility, since you can move two different (or even three) controllers at once with some practice. Having played a Prophecy myself, I can vouch for this, it is completely possible bending the pitch, adjusting the modwheel, and sweeping the ribbon at once after giving it a chance.




That's probably ribbon lock. Not a big detriment for me, as I don't use it often, and if I do, I would either use it before the actual sweep, so that the sweep locks on the ending point, or after, to prepare for a ribbon sweep in the future. Different people, different uses.

I am using a Yamaha Motif ES 7 as my masterkeyboard which got two wheels (mod + pitch) and a ribbon controller. This seems to be a great combination.
I also have a Korg Wavestation EX as a synth and controller whcih is one of the few Korg keyborads with Mod + Pitch wheels instead of a joystick. Of course the Wavestation also got the vector stick which could be used as controller for e.g. the Wavestation plugin.

About the Roland controller: Am i right that there is no aftertouch support? Strange to see that there are still many modern controllers which don't support aftertouch. For me this is a no go and i would never buy such a controller.

The Roland/Cakewalk A-500Pro looks more interesting to me and it also got aftertouch:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductI d=1095&ParentId=436

For more keys the A-800Pro seems to be interesting:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductI d=1096&ParentId=436

In the same price range the Novation Impulse looks nice (and it got wheels...):
http://www.thomann.de/gb/novation_impulse_61.htm

Around 2004/2005 i used a second-hand Roland JV-90 as a masterkeyboard (+ synth) which was very nice too. If i think about it now maybe i should get one again. I also had the Vintage synth expansion board for it.

info about the JV-90: http://www.vintagesynth.com/roland/jv90.php
http://www.sequencer.de/syns/roland/JV90.html


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:40 am; edited 4 times in total

hahaha, you're right....i'm getting confused at my ripe age of 'one pint too many'.

You haven't been 'bending' enough it seems. Try doing this: bend the pitch wheel minus an octave while adding modulation with the mod wheel by pushing it all the way up. Can you do it with one hand (using the other to play the keyboard)? Use both wheels at the same time and try to have some control over what you are doing.




I wouldn't say the two wheel arrangement is about flexibility, as it really is impossible to do certain gestures which are very easy with a pitch/mod stick.

When I play an acoustic guitar I don't need to move my hands off the guitar body or the fret board to do performance gestures (bending strings, muting strings, plucking with my finger nail, or the tip of the finger to change the timbre) and yet keyboards make it much more difficult and awkward (at least with the 'two wheel' design).

The issue I have is that once I buy a keyboard, I'm stuck with whatever the mod design it has, and it's all stacked up against mod sticks: if I buy a keyboard with two modulation wheels, but wish to expand my controllers by buying a dedicated pitch/mod stick box - I can't. But If I buy a keyboard with a pitch/mod stick and then whish to use a fader device as my mod controller I can buy a cheap fader box of which there are many, and have what I want.
I could always experiment with a game joystick, but I wonder about the zero position for pitch bends, would a game joystick have a huge centre gap or be smooth?

I can do that with enough control it seems.


But of course, that is going to be easier with a joystick, no arguments there.

Let me understand this: you are pulling one wheel all the way down (towards you), and pushing the other all the way up from its 'down' position (away from you). If you can do that then you must have some serious kung fu fingers. Kudos!
Last edited by himalaya on Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total

I did say it would be easier with a joystick!


But it's all down to how the wheels are made and which fingers you use. I'm using my index and middle finger on the pitch wheel, and my thumb on the modwheel. The wheels on my Kurzweil have a groove to place the finger in (as opposed to a "nipple", like on a Waldorf Blofeld keyboard, for example), so it gives some reinforcement to the fingers.

That's how I used to use mod wheels too. Perhaps the wheels on my Yamaha have a deeper travel as I could never reach the top of the mod wheel travel with my thumb, while pulling the pitch wheel down with the other fingers at the same time. Perhaps I need better finger Kung Fu.

I agree fully - just hate this joystick.
It's good for vibrato live possibly, nothing else.
It seems to be designed for that only.

To work with expression for most sample libraries it's useless.
You want to get the precise attack for an instrument etc, and this joystick is not letting you - such short movement and it returns.

But I also reassigned CC01 to a fader, but still a proper wheel that does not return to center is the best.

I think the Roland pitch stick looks the best. Since I barely ever use it or any other pitch mod wheel, I like the Roland the best.

Just think back in the 80's when the pitch stick barely moved upwards. I don't see much point in that design. I'm a little surprised too that they never added downward motion to it. Would seem logical. Or maybe they were about to fully realize the,pitch stick and then someone figured out the d beam thing. Downhill from there.

Yes, I remember the D50, and motion was basically none, just pressure sensitive kind of.

That is what I meant it's useless to control expression for samplelibraries.

My PCR800 now is a much longer motion, but keys does not compare to D50.
And joystick always returns to zero.

I think Roland has stickwheel at zero when not pushed. And everything is up from that point. It's basically not possible to have a center setting(64) going two ways for a library.

ModWheels that you can position and leave it I find the best for overall usage.

But if such continuous control is needed it is very easy to re-assign a mod wheel to a fader (for example on a cheap box like the Korg nonoKontrol). Now, the reverse can't be done, ie: if I have a keyboard with mod wheels, I can't re-assign the mod wheel to a mod stick, as there are none I can buy.

To be honest I do understand the frustration with Roland's implementation. The spring loaded modulation is awkward in a lot of situations, as by default the mod stick returns to zero - this actually creates a lot of problems in some VSTIs. Korg's non-spring loaded mod stick is much better in this regard. Perhaps this ought to be the standard when it comes to pitch+mod lever design.

I remember that the Novation Remote 25 had a manual switch underneath it that could enable/disable the spring loaded feature of the (i think) combined pitch mod joystick. I thought that was a good idea. It also had an xy pad and a bunch of knobs and sliders, good keys and decent sounds. All in all a pretty good performance controller, but a bit expensive when it was out.