Yes AQ And thanks for your last post Nielzie

Thank you Niels,

i agree and this quite of sums up what i wanted to say with my posts (which i repeated 2 pages ago).



Exactly what i already proposed in my own comment (more or less).



BTW I am not a "troll", i just tried to explain my own opinions and the observations i recently made.
One of my comments was about that the "climate" here on KVR seemed to be a bit "poisoned" since the arrival of Diva (without insulting a specific person or bashing about Diva itself) which you also see at the various "Diva vs XXX" comparisons. My observation is totally subjective of course and i also answered that i have no idea to Urs' question about what could be done to change the situation then. One thing like Nilzie already mentioned would be to respect that there are other great products (or VA synths to be precise) than Diva which have a focus on different things (e.g CPU use) and also other features maybe.

Personally i got Diva to get a proper sounding Jupiter 8 and Minimoog emulation but not as a replacement for all the VA synths in the world. This attempt would already fail with sounds where i need a 3rd envelope or a Notch filter for example. Recently i tried to reproduce sounds of Synthix which use it's Chorus and/or the 6dB BP filter with other synths like e.g. Saurus and that attempt failed too as they sound totally different which is good IMO.
I still don't feel that other synths (the Xils synths for example) are "crappy" since i got Diva.

I am totally OK with people who don't share my own opinions as everyone is free to say what he wants here at KVR.
I also encourage others to read my posts carefully (especially the longer statements which i repeated/quoted both 2 pages ago) and not just take out a single sentence or even change one of my quotes with additional words like mcnoone did...


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Fri May 18, 2012 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total

Without having time to read the entire thread, I'd like to bring up a few points (possibly brought up by other posters, don't know).

- The TPT (topology-preserving transform) method is not just about 0DF, it's about addressing 0DF everywhere, not only at the most "annoying" points like the main feedback loop of the Moog filter

- 0DF filters (BLT-based) do not sound better than any other BLT-based filters, unless nonlinearities or fast modulations are involved. E.g. you can implement a linear Moog filter model using two serially connected DF2 biquads, it will sound exactly the same as the BLT 0DF version in the unmodulated case. The TPT gets important in the case of nonlinearities and/or fast modulations.

- The "table compensation" method (such as adjusting the filter parameters to decouple Q from F in non-TPT models) works quite well to an extent, however you never can be fully sure. Particularly the phase response is usually somewhat wrong in this case and might produce audible difference in some special cases. With TPT you don't need to worry about this. You don't need to spend time building the compensation tables either.

Regards,
{Z}

Interesting points while i have to admit i don't understand everything as i'm no coder.

Anyway based on your posts at the DSP forum i found an interesting quote from another KVR member which seems to include a lot of truth which in parts was already mentioned in this thread and my own comments:



The quote is from this thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346756

Like i already mentioned myself there seems to be a lot more going on in the filters of e.g. the Xils synth or Diva than just the zero delay feedback as the advantages of the 0df filter design could be only seen at certain conditions and if a synth got a high oversampling amount maybe never or just more difficult (like AQ demonstrated nicely with the quality setting in PolyAna).


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Fri May 18, 2012 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total

I generally agree to your points, but then I'd like add:

- different people have different upper thresholds for audible frequencies. "Analog freaks" tend to have this threshold higher in my observations This affects the amount of perceived differences in the sound between two different filter models e.g.

- sometimes you need to know what to listen for in order to get aware of the differences in sound. I had an experience with a person being not able to tell between TPT and non TPT filter sound until I specifically pointed to him what to listen to. You can argue whether this is critical or not. Even if you're not aware of the sound difference consciously, this might affect your subconscious perception of the music

- I have a conjecture (never tried to really prove it) that some subtle differences in sound might become more critical (even if again subconsciously) in a real musical application, such as in a mix, due to masking, EQing etc

- I think Moore's law (in it's translation regarding the CPU performance) has come to a halt. So much for infinitely high oversampling

Regards,
{Z}

I guess that this is why a thread like this and also the tests provided by Xils Lab (Xavier and Lotuzia) and Admiral Quality seem to make sense finally.

If you or someone else has a more "foolprof" procedure to test 0df filter designs i am sure that you or others are welcome to post this here.

I already mentioned that besides the fact if a filter has a 0df filter desigjn or not i found it interesting to check the Resonance behavior of some of my own synths including a real analog Moog Slim Phatty (which seems to pass the tests of both Xils LAb and AQ).

Again many thanks for your contributions here.


Best wishes,
Ingo

I would like to support this idea. It seems people often ask "can you hear the difference in a mix" but I've personally noticed it's more common that even when I can't tell the difference between two versions in straight ABX, it might still be very obvious the moment I try them in a mix.

And once again, who doesn't?

You keep saying that there is some problem and lots of people are saying this and it is not true. Please stop spreading this false idea when you have nothing to back it up but that you want to say it. You keep pushing this false point and it starts to feel like you want to make a conflict where one doesn't exist.

Almost everyone uses multiple synths and is glad they have multiple synths...

This was exactly one of the points of my posts so you finally agree?




I don't want a conflict i just mentioned an observation i made and also mentioned it is subjective which means it could be also wrong. Why are you so afraid of my "false idea"? It's not like i want to start a "revolution" or something like that. By repeating my "false idea" again and again you have maybe done more damage than by just having ignored it.

What i want to say is that from my POV it's time to move on (as you could maybe see at my last post i made here) but if you like you could discuss this as long as you want.


Ingo

That is so absurd, I'm hiding Ingo from here on out. He does this passive aggressive attack thing on Diva constantly on KVR and creates a conflict out of nothing, but does it in such a way as to appear reasonable. It is rediculous. I'm done reading that nonsense.

As you are all asking for examples here is one which i have alraedy written in one of my quotes:

That idea i had is more or less confirmed by a post of Lotuzia and Urs:



Would it really have saved us some nerves like Urs said if Xils Lab had started that "blurb" instead of U-He?

Another example: Did you check how many times a "Diva vs XXX" comparison has done already in sefveral threads here on KVR with a conclusion like "Diva is great and other synths are crap in comparison". There is a thread like "Does anyone NOT like Diva" which is still going on...

My conclusion is: I like Diva but the hype around it is a bit beyond my personal taste and as said this is just my personal opinion and i didn't encourage anyone to follow my opinion.

Are you getting at least a little idea of what my "observation" (which i mentioned several times is subjective so a "prove" makes no real sense) is about?


Ingo

dont read it then, ignore the threads



you sure repeat it enough tho....

You didn't read the Tone2 Saurus thread or the ones where Lotuzia was constantly attacked by certain users from the u-he "camp" lately? It seems that there was/is some kind of u-he->Tone2/XILS-lab "twist" happening after DIVA arrived. That's what I meant, and I think that's what Ingonator meant too.

I'm neutral. Don't shoot me!

peace.

I did check... and the answer is none. There is not one thread with such a conclusion.

I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective anything even remotely critical regarding Saurus or Tone2 was twisted into conflict by insanely defensive fanboys who made it all about Saurus vs. Diva. You can blame me or other people who happen to own Diva for that but from my perspective is some feedback in a synth is good and I didn't constantly bring Diva up To me it was all about Saurus and Tone2 and had extremely little to do with Diva. (btw Tone2's marketing and customer interactions didn't help, and any 'blame' needs to be shared around, not just piled on Diva users).

My big complaint about Saurus was the demo timeout, I do not see how that wasn't valid, and then recently wanted to get to the bottom of the whole 'Tone2 uses spyware' thing and was attacked after trying to be helpful, which encouraged me to mock a certain Tone2 'minion' after repeatedly being called an agent of U-he, which I definitely am not I own a whole bunch of other products, I'm an AAS user far more than any other company, but no one accused me of being an agent of AAS! I may be an asshole, but don't blame anyone but me for that.

I get the feeling certain people just want to drop the Saurus name in the same sentence with Diva, any publicity is good publicity no? So whatever, so its some weird dysfunctional viral marketing campaign maybe, ok. Whatever.