Defeatist? Me? nah.........can't be!

But seriously, the guy wants one host with the capability to do MUSIC. This is not an easy question to answer AND you'd have to get all of those based on "positive thinking"

Consider this:

http://www.groove3.com/str/access-it-all.html

5 bucks, download some demos.........go! This can help you at virtually no cost!

Me, If I had to make a recommendation? The dreaded "r" word and komplete. I don't know what komplete (you don't need ultimate btw) is going for but considering how good those are and then reaper and it's low price/high stability you are set!

Again, it's a law of averages. Really hard to pin down one specific thing but you gotta start somewhere. The groove 3 deal, and some demos (and you can demo specific NI stuff if you want to go in that direction pretty easily) and you've got a pretty powerful setup

That's a really good question. In a word, no, it does not sound "thin." It does, however, from time to time reveal its dated algorithms. My biggest gripe WRT sound, and one that I'm hoping will be fixed via a plugin of some sort, is that the RV-7000 is really not that good of a reverb. I have no idea why people rave about it.I think that Thor is decent, but it is not ACE/Diva, or even Reaktor.

Thin isn't the word I'd use, perhaps plastic.

I think that it's bigger weaknesses are also its strengths. For example, the user interface for the rack is great to visualize connections, but horrible to visualize many connections.

Sonar never gets a lot of love on these forums. I'm a Sonar user, I have X1D expanded, I hardly ever encounter problems. There were issues on the initial release but they've patched a lot of them up. Personally I love Sonar, it does lots of things and the stuff it came with is great. But be warned, if/when you do pick a DAW to work in. The third party stuff will always tempt you!!
Not saying that Sonar (or other DAWS) dont' come with great synths, many do, but there is some pretty awesome 3rd party stuff out there!

Sonar X1d Expanded is an incredibly powerful DAW...

There were a few bugs in the initial Sonar X1 release through to X1c, but the mechanics at Cakewalk got everything sorted in X1d and improved the multi core efficiency as well...

We are so spoilt with regards to choices in all areas these days,but if you are using a PC,I would say that X1 Pro running in a Win 7 x64 environment,is the best way to travel...

Cakewalk work very closely with Microsoft and Intel and this development translates into very real and tangible results in the working environment...

I use Sonar X1 Expanded every day and I get the results I need 100% of the time with no fuss and no down time...

It's the perfect DAW for my professional needs

Almost all will, but some are slightly more focussed around specific directions, making it easier to work in a particular way, eg focussed more on audio recording, or looping or step sequencing or...

Sonar has a good balance of those, IMO, but the only way to decide if that particular balance fits you best is to try a few and see. Sonar's what Ive owned for longest, right back to v1, but I also use ProTools a lot, and Live8, depending on what Im doing.
However getting a DAW should be more about the DAW than the tools that come with it. In Sonar's case, it comes with a fairly good set of basic workhorse tools, but nothing in particular stands out that much against the modern third-party stuff.



TBH, I dont think its necessary unless what you need is the core DAW features. Cant remember how HS6XL compares against X1, but X1 was quite a big change in UI from previous versions, and that throws me somewhat after so many years of useage. The core feature set is good, but still has neglected 'legacy' aspects that werent modernised the way other stuff was, to the point of almost-deprecation (eg Studioware, CAL, notation) so if you'll need any of that, you might find other solutions are needed.



Its definitely not why I would suggest it but its a fairly good deal if you want those instruments. For the cost of the upgrade to Producer (£170 here) you're getting Dimension Pro (£70 here), and a cutdown version of Rapture, and the slightly slightly older version of Zeta, plus a significant step up on the feature set.
Do bear in mind that its only got one of the TruePiano models, though SessionDrummer3 might make up the difference in usefulness for you. Studio Instruments didnt impress me at all, but 'for nothing' it might be useful, and Producer also gives you some higher end 'channel strip' type plugins and the Prochannel mixer, which are fairly decent.
Sonar's loop plugins (Beatscape, Cyclone, RXP) are kind of underrated so they're actually kinda worth a think about. Plus you also get Pentagon and PSYNII which again arent bad workhorse, albeit somewhat long in the tooth.
If you went down the route of Studio rather than Producer, you'd save a little bit, but lose ProChannel and some of the better mixing plugins (and Dimension).
If you really decided that the plugins were more important than the DAW, you could spend that same budget judiciously, pick out some good freeware and get a few plugins which are closer to best-of-breed but you'd probably not be able to cover all of those bases as easily. You'd probably need to focus more on exactly what you wanted.
I actually think Sonar X1 makes a good foundation point, but Im not so sure I say 'its the best solution' just for the plugins. The plugins are also a good foundation, but you might find that if you start looking at other third-party stuff later, then eventually you wind up relying more on that to the exclusion of the bundled stuff.




Impossibly for anyone but you to say, Im afraid.



In general, on a par. Workhorse, as I say, rather than best of breed. But comes with a good selection, at a fairly reasonable cost.

Someone should also note that if later on you find a DAW that works better for you you're kinda screwed. You can't resell Sonar and it's not exactly cheap.

On the store, Producer is a $299 upgrade from the cakewalk product he already has. Almost all of the plugins, (which seems to be his focus) including Dimension Pro which retails for $99 on its own, would still work with anything else he moved to in future.

Live8 starts at $449. None of the included plugins will work with anything he migrated to from that, if that winds up not suiting him.

Cubase is $499. As far as I know none of the included plugins will work with anything he migrated to from that either.

Digital Performer 7 seems to be about $500, so the Windows version will probably be in the same territory. Its not out yet though, and its own plugins work to standard all of its own dont they?

ProTools 10 is $699, and again, none of the included plugins will work with anything he migrated to from that.


Those are the 'main' cross platform 'big' full-blown DAWs with a full suite of instruments and effects that you could compare against. I'd say its cheap for him compared to its peers, with more that would be 'reusable'.

For those that care (and I dont) Cubase and PT also use hardware-based licensing. Not so sure about Performer.

buy Sonar only, if you're sure, you'll not migrate to mac! you can't sell neither your license nor your Cakewalk account.
beside of that, every daw is full of great features and most of thr daws have nasty bugs and strange restrictions. take a month of time and try everything, you can get a demo from, make notes and decide then.

At a cost of $299.



But you can sell it, which is the point that people are making.



They don't, but again, you can sell cubase.



Well, that's an interesting spin on "you can't sell it." I mean, if he doesn't like the effects/VSTs and wants instead to try Live, he's kind of hosed, eh?



They do, as does Reason. Also, Live uses an irritating C/R based protection scheme with a limited number of installs.

Yes, I think I did mention the price, in both posts Ive made on the subject.



Well, actually its one of the two points that one person I was replying to made, but I was more interested in ensuring there was a context for the other one, that it was 'not exactly cheap', by showing that it was cheaper than some of the direct alternatives. Two of which I own.



Of course. How much money h'd potentially lose on it, versus what he'd be able to reuse is where the decision making process comes in, if that's of concern to him.



To spin something you have to be addressing it. I wasnt; that's just a poor assumption on your part.



Yeah. If. Same as he's 'kind of hosed' to some extent if he doesnt like any of the options X and wants to try a different one later.

And its is also why my first post in the thread pretty much said that I didnt think the bundled plugins were the best primary rationale for making a choice.

No, not really. You can buy the direct alternatives used, which, of course, with software, is not really any different from buying it new.



Not at all. Buy X used, try, sell X used for the same price that you paid for it.



In general, with that, I agree.

I also agree that Sonar is the only DAW that allows you to use your plugs with other hosts. I said that, in fact, earlier in the thread. I just think that it's an expensive way to get some mediocre plugs. Komplete is a better value.

I think that Fruity Loops allows you to use their plugins with other hosts. Does it have some sort of "studio" bundle?

This thread really does have a wealth of great info to help you decide.

The one thing I like the most about the latest SONAR versions (8 too I think) is MMCSS. It doesn't permit anything to interfere with SONAR - it actually 3works!

But for the record, SONAR X1d still has significant bugs. The keyboard shortcuts interfere with inputing text into vsts. ACT is really buggy, even if you use a Cakewalk ACT keyboard. And there are no decent instructions on how it works ... even at the Cakewalk forums, where you can barely find enough info after a few weeks to realize that ACT basically is a marketing sham!

thank you all for your advice! I will give some more thought on the DAW. I'll have to look in to Komplete.

I might end up just getting Sonar X1. Reselling isn't that big of a deal for me, though it would be nice to be able to resell. If in the future I'm making more money, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for me.

ghettosynth: What do you mean by Reason sounding plastic? How do you think it compares to Native Instruments products?

whyterabbyt: How do you think the VST's and plugings for 3rd party's such as NI compare to Sonar's?

The effects/synths have more artifacts than more recent products. While I think that Thor is decent, it does not sound as good as more modern synths. It's been around for quite some time. There's no free lunch. Reason is very CPU efficient, but coding only gets you so far. Modern algorithms that sound good tend to demand more from the CPU.

Other than Thor, I really don't like the sound of the other synths very much at all. The sampler is fine if you are not really pushing the filters. In fact, it's very nice to setup multisamples. The original VA synth, which I can't even remember its name right now, blows chunks. I only use it when it's part of some other combi or there is some convoluted reason to include it in a combi myself.

Of course, people get great sounds out of those devices and you can make them work. I find Reason to be about an 85% solution for what I do, but, it's at least 50% more productive for the 85% that it can do. The problem is, that last 15% kills the productivity. I can sample Diva and bring in the loop, but that's tiresome.

Anyway, that's my 0.02. I think it depends a lot on what you expect from sound sources and effects.

If you're talking about the Komplete bundle, its difficult to see much wrong with it, expect perhaps if its outside your budget, or just got too much stuff in it to get your head round easily. As far as I reckon, almost everything in the bundle sits at, or near, the top of their respective categories. Reaktor and Kontakt in particular are industry standards. Absynth is in a class of its own, Massive and FM8 are highly rgarded and Guitar Rig gives you a good flexible modular effects package. The only 'workhorse' is Battery, and it does its job more than well enough. For the money, the bundle could pretty much cover all your requirements for a good long time.

However, if you're contemplating it, hang on a bit; NI have made a habit of a heavy discount (50%) over summer, prior to launching a new version in autumn or so. If you dont mind the fact that there'll be a slightly larger bundle coming 'soon', the saving is worth hanging on for.

If you're talking about single products, as I say Reaktor and Kontakt are irreplaceable. If you use sample libraries, I reckon 80% or more of commercial sample libraries are built for Kontakt, from massive choral and orchestral stuff down to quirky little sets from independents/individuals. Reaktor is a beast, a fully modular environment with free access to a library including thousands of full synths and effects. To me, I could live without Massive, FM8 or Battery, but a lot of people get a lot of good use out of them.

There's no direct equivalent to what you would get with Sonar, but between Absynth, Massive and FM8 you can probably cover the same 'synthetic' territory as Dimension, zeta+ and Rapture, and maybe rely on Kontakt for anything sample-based.

If you're specifially determined to go down the 'virtual analog' route, commercially, NI dont offer anything specific, but most modern VAs are at least a generation ahead of Pentagon now. I'd say look to things like u-he Diva, FXpansion DCAM, and GForce impOSCar for the best-of-breed stuff. And if you ever wanted an analogue modular, VAZ Modular recently got its price slashed and will do a hell of a lot of other stuff, like FM to Casio phase synthesis and wavetables, too. Its a bit complex though.

Other 'name' synths like Alchemy, Zebra, are all excellent too, and easily capable of covering most of territory of the Sonar stuff, although again not necessarily with direct equivalence, and with a relatively high pricetag. There are also some genuine bargain powerhouses out there, like Kubik and Rhino, and the U-he Uhbik bundle and individual Audiodamage and Valhalla effects.

Whatever you do there are also some very good bits and pieces which will cost you nothing, like (IMO) the freeware synths Crystal and Tyrrell. Do some research around KVR for that.

And make sure you try the demos; the best we can do is point you at stuff we know works well for us. It may not actually be the best stuff for you, and although you may see a lot of 'you have to use what I use' behaviour, the only real way to make the decision is to try it for yourself.