Always problems with you, never solutions. I can think of solutions, can't you... lol

Fixed that for you. Taken from the same post that Anosou quoted earlier... :P

Ah, okay... it's difficult to think clearly under the force of such marketing mumbo-jumbo disguised as tech info.

Okay, that doesn't change the fact that there could be a couple of different ways of dealing with things. Nothing seems to be set in stone at this point, apart from commercial intentions.

A couple of reasons actually! First, let's get one thing out of the way - the DSP code is the part that takes a few hours to port. DSP, being basically math, is very easily ported to any plug format (or so I've heard from people who knows).

What doesn't take that time to port over is the GUI. Our requirements for the interface are quite special and, in version one, actually a bit limited. Rack Extensions need to fit in the rack and be made in 3D to begin with. While there are parts one can use, making your own assets takes quite a bit of know-how.

The way future-proofing works is partly in the graphics being scalable for the future and partly in how the RE is handled. Without getting too technical, REs basically run sandboxed in quite a clever way and can't interfere with anything on your system. This also means it is technically impossible to crash Reason or anything else if a Rack Extension crashes. It also works in a way that Propellerhead actually compiles these and supply the framework.

That last part means that since we do the framework, we can update the surrounding things even without the Rack Extension itself needing an update - we have the graphics and DSP. In practice this means that developers never need to worry about 32/64/128(!) bit, new OS versions or anything like that. They send us one RE and that's compatible with all support versions of Windows and Mac right now and in the future. When Reason runs on a system, so will all Rack Extensions ever made.

These technical things, at least I think, will benefit developers mainly. They don't have to worry about copy protection, licensing, compatibility, setting up a store, demos etc. Hopefully this leads to them being able to make more cool things instead which will benefit the users.

Some very user-focused things include that there's only one license and one store. This means you get all REs, potential RE feature updates and downloads from one place. These can be used with internet verification or an Ignition Key as a "bulk license". There's also 30 days of trial for every single Rack Extensions for all users. It's important that users can try stuff and see if it works for them, their system is up to snuff etc. before they buy.

Some other purely user experience things in how REs intergrate into Reason. Every RE uses the same patch browser, the same XML-based patch format, the same automation and routing paradigms etc. Someone using Reason will hardly notice a difference from using the good 'ol Reason devices. This, of course, would only apply to people who actually like how Reason works.

That's from the top of my head. Me explaining the very in-depth details of RE tech wouldn't do much good because I'm not a dev but if there's something you'd really really like clarification on I can ask a colleague once I'm back at the office.

I'll be completely honest and say that whilst I do have arguments against all of your points, I'm a bit tired and you are doing a stellar job... so I'm off to bed with no contest.

I'd would be nice to have a copy of the SDK and an NFR copy of Reason (I sold mine at 2.5) to play around with though.

I put my idea about the vst wrapper in reason time ago on the feature requests forum. It was very simple and it worked: i called it "inwire", consisting in a simple rack which bypasses the cables' labyrinth GUI, linking directly to the sequencer track via an internal rewire (which is a PH protocol). It is just what people have been asking for ages. And expecially now that Reason is no more "the racks GUI", like 10 years ago. Now Reason main environment is the sequencer, like any other DAW out there. Not everything must be modular! See "Record" for instance: if it supported vst it had been a success. But, alas... we all know how it ended. I am sure they will steal this idea of mine (LOL) and introduce it in a year or two if they want to survive: RE for geeky nerdy routing cable fanatics; "inwire" (aka vst support) for musicians.
Last edited by myrna on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

Anosou-Mattias

Curious about something. Can someone demo a Rack Extension who is demoing Reason?

Or do you need the key (own Reason) to demo the RE?

I "try"ed them all. I especially expected more from Sugar Bytes who are truly awesome and innovators in VST land, the piecemeal REs are like paying for a crippled and less usable effectrix, artillery, etc. I'm sure it's just testing the water but c'mon man....It's a sticky issue for a company like SB maybe but I adore their VST and was hoping at least for each effect from effectrix and artillery as individual RE for like $10.00 or something. The attention to detail by some devs like fxpansion and soniccharge and synapse with more rear end rack goodies is great and worth the price but in and out audio jacks only and higher price for less bang? No thanks.

To answer your questions:

Not a lot of VST but this was long long ago in cubasevst32 v5 times when DXI was still fighting it, etc. today in 2012 expectations are much higher. The only out for a little while comment does not hold much water therefore. Props control the game, the field, the audience. Wait longer and don't release until more choices.

I'm not saying all the REs are lacking innovation, Radical piano is really sweet, etch red is fantastic, but as owner of many VST plugs that were converted into REs, it's much less wow and a lot of ho-hum. Not to fault the devs, I'm talking my own experience based on my own circumstances.

One thing reason always had going for it was rock solid stability. Experiencing that glitch with red I'm not so sure it's going to stay that way.

I think the prices and cross grades are more issue for long term diehard plug users who ALSO own reason, and that to be honest rebuying stuff I already own in VST is not going to happen until there is a discount or some kind of resale policy, I will not buy anything sadly.

I was very optimistic but not any more. Props need to adjust the rules if they want me to play the game.

I'm not going to waste my time reporting a random glitch because as said I'm very wary of my future with reason at all.

Edited for spelling (fn iPad autocorrect)
Last edited by grymmjack on Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

I'm afraid that at this time you need to own Reason to demo an RE. We got some feedback about this, especially from you guys, so I'll pass it on to the product managers!

A VST wrapper would rule but it removes their profits from the equation. Also nothing is Windowed it's all rack so I bet that would be a serious issue they don't even want to deal with.

I completely appreciate and admire the choice of doing it the right way the first time around, but I just can't rebuy existing VST as REs unless AppStore pricing was in play. Problem there is reason is not an economy of scale (yet) that can support such low prices.

I'm happy and sad but mostly disappointed but I will give props credit. They are doing something new, that takes guts, and I hope for all of us users and devs of REs and props too it becomes a huge success. Just hard to see it given current situation.

I was really excited for devs to have a platform where piracy is a nonissue. Where they focus on building great stuff, pirates are forced to pay for, and props handles marketing while AppStore like reviews and ratings handle marketing.

The best platforms are dream catching ones. Apple proved that, I hope props and reason can do the same for the devs.

I think you're correct here. They will probably implement Midi Out and non-modular VST support sooner or later.

I really like Reason, but as a longtime user I'm a bit concerned that the Props have somehow lost their grip.

For example, when the Figure app was released I thought they would have a Figure device for the Reason rack ready for 6.5 as well. It's such a basic idea: let people wet their appetites with a $1 sample "slice of Reason" on their iPhones. Then have them download Reason and import their Figure creations into the Reason Figure device for the real meal. Today you can't even save in Figure, but I bet if people could ONLY save stuff in Figure (as opposed to allowing both saving and loading), that would add some argument for new people to check out Reason... where they could load their creations and continue editing. But no...

I remember a few years back, before I bought Reason/Record, I could rewire the demo of Reason 3, but it timed out after 20 minutes or something like that. I assume the same timeouts happen for Reason 6.

So if people have been Rewiring Reason 6 demo for temporary access to the Reason Rack in their DAW, essentially all future FX, synths, utilities, etc from Reason are cut off for those that use a demo of Reason.

No wonder some are p*ssed!

There is going to be some wild stuff coming out of Reason in the future as new REs come out, that are unavailable in VST form. And people using the REs within combinators coming up with even more stuff unavailable outside Reason.

Interesting times ahead...

Actually, props changed the behavior of the demo with Record and that change was brought in to Reason 6 afaik. Reason demo doesn't time out. You can do everything the full version does, including saving your projects. What you can't do is load already saved projects.

I mean, it isn't really a separate demo version. It's the same version as full and when you install and run it, if you don't have an ignition key with a license on it you get three choices: A.) To register your product to your ignition key. B.) You don't have your key with you so you can log in over the internet as your license is tied to your propellerhead account or finally C.) You run it in demo mode with the aforementioned limits (i.e. no loading of documents).

I wonder if props will make Reason rewire master at some point after adding MIDI Out (if they'll add it, that is).

Ever thought that maybe the people with 20 hosts and 100's of VST's are not actually the people props are targeting with RE's?

I'd say they know their customer base quite well by now.

Maybe they are targeting people like my girlfriend who uses nothing but Reason, does not read forums, does not give a shit about VST's. She now has a way to purchase new synts/effect that work in the only way she know how to work.