Braj, I see you've been spending a lot of time getting to know S1v2. How would you, at this point, summarise what you *don't* like about it?

I have heard that it's hard to use mid-generating VSTis (e.g arps, Catanya etc) which send data to sound-producing VSTs; and that midi implentation and editing is weak in general. What's your take on these?

It's not hard to use arps etc, just they need their own tracks, but this is both a drawback and a plus. It is a drawback because it takes two tracks for sure, but you can easily group the tracks and throw them in forders and record the arp output, I use a midi scale transposer all the time and this is actually better than it living on one track, because I get the actual notes recorded, not just the originating, non-transposed notes. Reaper has single-track implementation and a nifty render midi function but in practice it does have limitations and the midi render often needs editing, so I can't really say S1 is worse in that department. I mentioned before that if arps etc could be placed at the midi device-level that would be ideal.

I like the midi editing in general, the multi-track implementation is slick, Melodyne is slick to grab midi, just I want more scales and I would personally love a fold function like Live/Reaper. The groove function is slick, grab grooves from audio and apply to midi and vice versa is great, but there is some limitation in teh grid that doesn't display this in all instances correctly, I'd like that fixed.

I have only been using S1 for only a few months and I like it very much so far.
I haven't yet formed a full opinion of S1 yet because there are many things I need to learn more about first.

I know that this is not a Reaper vs S1 thread, but I have to compare them with each other because I have been using Reaper for so long that it's pretty much the only thing I am good at using.

So here is my short list of what I am missing in S1:

- The ability to import highlighted parts from audio clips when using the media explorer. This is really cool feature and so useful with long samples. A real time saver for sure.

- I would also like to be able to disable the mixer sends separately from the inserts. It's very annoying that this can't be done. I keep the mixer visible at all times and those sends use valuable space which I need for other things. Mixer needs a bit more customization and more layouts.

- I also liked how Reaper let's the user see multiple plugin GUI's opened at the same time. With S1 I am constantly frustrated because when I open a plugin to tweak it, something else that I want to monitor seems to be closed.

- I wish presonus would implement dry/wet mixer into the plugin window. I used this on every project when I was using reaper.

- I would also like to be able to separate hardware midi outputs in the instruments list.
I have about 30 vsti's and 18 midi I/O's and things look very messy because all off them are mixed in the list.

- Reaper is most of the time so much better when it comes to the way it uses CPU. I wish that Presonus would concentrate on this one. S1 cpu metering is also a bit weird IMO.

- The usage of "tools" is way too old school for me. With Reaper it's so easy to do many things without needing to press any kind of tool buttons. I don't know how to explain this.

- Reaper's routing is so much better than what S1. Many things I have tried to do are not possible in S1.

- Different types of tracks for midi, audio and bus. With Reaper any channel can do anything which is my preferred way of doing things.

- No way that I know of to setup the main mixer channel into the left side of the mixer. Yeah, this is pretty small feature for most, but it's a big one for me.

- Plugin CPU usage list on Reaper is much better.

- Lots of crashes and GUI glitches.

- No way that I know of to change the master channel metering to peak instead of RMS. Metering needs more customization IMO. I always have my own vu plugins that I use on the master channel.

- S1 item properties window is way too minimal when compared to the one in Reaper.

- Not enough scales in the midi window.

- No way to modulate plugin or instrument parameters with audio or an LFO. This is one of the best reaper features for me.

- No way to have multiple midi outputs for instrument channels.

- Online activation sucks but I am willing to do that because I like S1.

- I don't like seeing fx plugins in the list where you choose where to output midi.
Once again it's mixed with everything else. VSTi's and normal midi outs. If I have 10 cytomic compressor on the projects I see them everytime when I setup a midi out for a synth.

- No sysex support I use a lot of HW synths and I needed to buy a multiclient cabable MIDI interfaces because of this which cost me something like 300 euros.

- Replacing an instrument with another means you are going to loose all the fx inserts.

- Unlike Reaper, there is no built in bit bridge. This is a big minus in my opinion.
Jbridge is not expensive, but it should have been included in the daw in the first place.
Afterall S1 is very expensive when compared to Reaper.

- I am getting worse low latency performance than I had in Reaper.

- No fullscreen mode. What where presonus thinking for not implementing this? I don't want to see the taskbar when I write music.

What I like about S1:

+ No tons of snap / grid settings to adjust. It just works.

+ Input metering

+ Good plugins that actual have GUI's

+ Simplicity.

+ One of my favourite features in S1 is the melodyne integration. Another one is that when you open fxb banks for your vsti's, S1 will make a list of the banks in the explorer. This way it's very fast to open them next time.

+ Another good feature which I like is that monitoring channels are easier to understand than in reaper.
I don't need many options with this. Reaper has many ways to do things but it's not always good.

+ Recording of MIDI arps

+ I can actually bypass all the channel insert at once without bypassing the instrument at the same time. This is one of the most stupid thing that I know in Reaper.

+ There are more stuff I miss from reaper but at the moment I can't remember what they. I guess I need to be working on song to remember them.

+ No skinning of GUI. Yes you read correctly. It's a plus IMO.
I have spend too much time trying different skins on reaper only to find out that I come along just fine with one good GUI. I never could resist the temptation to change the skin weekly or so

+ Window in the mixer area where you can see the item waveform more closely. It was actually one of my feature requests for reaper, but no one seemed to be interested of it.

+ I am getting way better MIDI timing in S1 when I compare it to reaper

+ Less audible clicking when in looping mode. Reaper always sounded like crap for me when looped.

+ Option to disable "services" is a big plus. I don't need soundcloud, cd burning or anything else really.

My dream sequencer would be a combination of features of my choosing from bothe the S1 and Reaper.

Good list, and I totally agree with this last bit!

Thanks both of hyou for taking the time to spell all those things out. I'm soooo undecided.....

IMO, long point-by-point comparisons are useful up to a point but don't really tell the full picture. I'm sure i could put together tunes in GarageBand if I had to but playing with it I never really clicked. For me it's much more how something feels than a comparison list.

S1 has a one-month demo, as do most DAWs, you try then out and the one that feels best is probably the one that's gonna help you to make the best music.

one thing about S1, and i am being dead serious here guys.. I am very experienced with S1.. and i am not trolling here.. it's just that some of you may find what i am about to say rather strange, as S1 is praised all the time for it's "consolidated workflow gui".

but i just do not like the gui at ALL. It's like someone who is technically stunning to look at, i.e they have all the right features, but somehow they are not attractive.

S1 has lovely easy on the eye colours, everything is docked.. but when the inspector and everything is open, i find the layout SO busy, SO over the top, that it actually confuses me just to look at it. I have to shut everything off but the main arrange page. The way it all blends and contrasts is WRONG imo.. it's very hard to concentrate with what's going on.

On a laptop, the way the smaller mixer is set up with the open close arrows, is daunting.

Logic is so streamlined and elegant, it may not be as "pretty:" but it NEVER gets even remotely confusing to look at.

JUst an example comparison.

What i am basically saying is, that i am in the minority of people, that actually can't stand the S1 gui at *all*.

I like the gui a lot, but I use a panoramic 23-inch screen.

I tell ya, it looks absolutely stunning on a 27' screen too

As for the Inspector, when I don't need it, F4 closes it, so that's OK.

i have a 27" on my imac which admittedly i rarely use cause of my back injury bullshit but yeah for me even the same on that, when there are a few tracks and effects happening, it's all over the place *to me*

as i said i do know i am in a huge minority here, and fair enough..

You know most people think reason is fugly, and to me it all makes sense and uncluttered (the sequencer)

logic will always be my fave gui though with live a close second.

Live? Reason? AAAGGGH!

Joking apart I've used Live since ver 2 and I still love it and will continue to use it, but as functional as its GUI is, I'm pretty bored with it these days. Live's no looker IMO.

As for Reason, seems a wicked bit of software but for me anywhere its beauty would have to be internal , 'cos extranally there's not much going on.

Still, 'eye of the beholder' and all that

I have been using Studio One since v1 and upgraded to v2. Initially I loved the app and had great things to say about it, but admittedly my excitement wore off and I returned to Reaper (supplemented with a bit of Mulab and Maschine).

I think it was mainly a combination of its high CPU usage and a gui/workflow that feels inflexible to me compared to Reaper. Still, it is a very nice app from a great company (all my interfaces are Presonus) and will be interested to see where it goes in the future, as I may migrate back to it eventually.

Certainly do miss the audio quantising and Melodyne integration that I would kill for in Reaper. And as others have mentioned, everyone should check out the MUX vst, which rocks hard in any DAW...well only Windows ones for the moment anyway.

Totally agree with this. Just getting to grips with S1 myself and there is a lot to like but I'm not a massive fan of the GUI - particularly on a laptop.

Agree with the GUI being a little sterile. Not so confusing though. I work a lot with multi editing Pianoroll and it's a killer! Haven't seen that anywhere. No, not even Logic has it that way.

At the end of the day, together with MuLab and energyXT, it has a damn fast workflow that allows you to really create without getting in the way.

The MUX allows me to bypass the multi VST issue per track and with the advantage of out-of-this-world modulation madness.

So, S1 + MUX = Excellent indeed.

The reason why people make threads like this is because they are interested to hear other opinions.
Everyone knows that there is the demo available. If trying the demo solves everything, none of us don't need to be participating on any discussion here because there is product demos available of almost anything. I am so tired of all these "try the demo" replies.

My list was a description of what I like about S1 and what needs to be improved.
I had much thought about these things before I posted my opinion here, but I see now that I was really mistaken to believe that it could actually benefit someone who is interested in S1.

It's easy to talk about how something feels. But it's all useless if you can't even describe why you feel the way you do. There are so many posts in KVR that sound smart, but in reality are not telling us anything.