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When to use 7ths, 9ths and 11ths and open voicings on piano?
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Dewdman42
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:47 pm reply with quote
jancivil wrote:
]That doesn't actually make sense. There are conventions that are apparent in style where a tritone carries an expectation. You might note what I said for what it is. there is no requirement per se for expectation from a chord.


It make perfect sense, but perhaps you did not understand me.

9ths, 11ths and 13ths are what I call tension add notes for chords. There is a distinction between those and 1,3,5,7. I tried to explain why. 1,3,5 and 7 have a huge impact on the function of the chord. Its minor or major, for example. But a minor chord with added 9th, still sounds like a minor chord, but with some coloration. This is a form of tension or coloration, and you can have more or less tension in chords, by adding these kinds of intervals into the picture. as I tried to explain about tension curve, you can use tensions as a form of cresendo/descrendo, building curves at your whim for how you would like the music to ebb and flow. If you want constant tension, then fine for that too.

But its not the same as the kind of tension that you were referring, related to tri tone resolution. The human ear has a strong desire to want to resolve the tri tone, which is why a V7 chord wants to be resolved. It doesn't have to be of course, but the ear wants it to. That is because the tritone exists in the chord in a certain way. When I spoke before of add note colorations as tension notes, I was not referring to tri tone tension/resolution, that is a completely different thing. I was referring to using 9th, 11th and 13th notes to add coloration, of varying degrees of tension, which can form a tension curve over time, increasing or decreasing the coloration as you see fit. You were kind of arguing against tension curve for no reason because I don't think you understood me. what i referred to as tension curve, WAS NOT tri tone resolution.

You gave a Hendrix example of a sophisticated chord, for example that does not need to resolve. That's because it its not a V7. The added coloration notes only add richness and yes tension, but not so strong like a tri tone that it wants to be resolved. Of course you don't have to resolve a V7 chord either if you don't want to, but the strong tendency to do so is there, that is where typical traditional tension/resolution progressions tend to come from. But we are not talking about that with coloration 9ths, 11ths and 13ths, we are talking about coloration only, a milder form of tension, which can follow a curve throughout the music if you so desire.
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A.M. Gold
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:18 am reply with quote
Dewdman42 wrote:
However there are oodles of other examples out there of music which has a lot of 9, 11, 13 color tones and does not sound "jazz", but rather sounds "sophisticated" or rich.

Funk.
----
Yes!
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jancivil
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:45 pm reply with quote
Dewdman42 wrote:
jancivil wrote:
]That doesn't actually make sense. There are conventions that are apparent in style where a tritone carries an expectation. You might note what I said for what it is. there is no requirement per se for expectation from a chord.


It make perfect sense, but perhaps you did not understand me.

9ths, 11ths and 13ths are what I call tension add notes for chords. There is a distinction between those and 1,3,5,7. I tried to explain why. as I tried to explain about tension curve, you can use tensions as a form of cresendo/descrendo, building curves at your whim for how you would like the music to ebb and flow. If you want constant tension, then fine for that too.

But its not the same as the kind of tension that you were referring, related to tri tone resolution. The human ear has a strong desire to want to resolve the tri tone, which is why a V7 chord wants to be resolved.
I follow everything you say with no problem. your 'explanations' are quite unnecessary, bit of an eye-roller frankly. You said "Tritone resolution causes a distinct desire by the listener to hear a resolution." It doesn't make sense as a sentence. Aa a sentence it says essentially the thing is its own cause. Even taking a meaning out it, it's problematic. There is no "distinct desire" just owing to the presence of these intervals vertically.

I'll reiterate my point which I guess you didn't quite grasp: that "tritone resolution" is context-bound. In certain contexts there is an expectation of a resolution.
"V7". As should be perfectly clear, the Foxy Lady chord is not V of anything, it is 'I7'.



"tension" in your remarks seems to want to be a purely objective criteria, and I don't believe it is, it's relative. So a funk tune that sits on 'I7' just "sustains tension, flatly"? Whatever. That's your take on things, I don't think that way. I think a lot of things just sit and relax on a major/min 7th chord. This is subjective language and POV stuff. "the human ear has a desire [for the tritone in a major/minor 7th chord] to resolve...". Well it doesn't for me, except in a context that has that kind of expectation. It isn't through itself a true statement, and bringing 'the human ear' into it is a real reach.
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Dewdman42
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:36 pm reply with quote
ok well I don't really wish to argue with you or anyone else about what is or isn't allowed in music, I tried to present some open minded ideas to the OP about what to do with 9ths, 11th's and 13ths'. My "long winded" explanations were for the OP, not you. Enjoy your music making
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