Hello all - I've been hanging out on the ZynAddSubFx forums, but I have a question for the wider audience of experts here:
If I decide that this project is worth actually spending some money on, is there a list somewhere of PCI sound cards with native ASIO support? Any recommendations? Particular brands that have a good rep in the community?
IT doesn't seem to be a big selling point since manufacturers don't seem to brag about it much. Googling "ASIO sound card" gets me 100 links to ASIO4All and no links to specific hardware.
Thanks in advance for any advice!

just stick with the 'proper' music oriented companies (so m-audio, esi, rme etc) and avoid 'gaming' oriented manufacturers (so anything from asus or creative) - can tell you from firsthand experience the asus ASIO drivers are a joke

Go to any audio hardware reseller and check their sound card ranges.

The's a benchmark/testing list a few firms contribute too here which you could use to extract a few names :

http://www.dawbench.com/images/dawbench-llp-05-12-2.jpg

be warned through the prices of the interfaces on there range from £100 to £1500 so perhaps a lot more research to do.

General rule of audio interfaces : You can't go wrong with an RME but your bank manager will hate you for it! All the rest have their plus and minus points but they'll all do the job better than a gaming card that claims to do ASIO.

Perhaps what might get you a few more suggestions is saying what you need out of it. The recomendation for a user with a guitar and a mic to plug in would be completely different from someone wanting to work wholey in the box with no inputs required.

OK, a little background: I am an electronic and software engineer. I did a lot of analog electronic music back in the 70s and 80s, when editing was done with two tape decks, a razor blade, and a roll of scotch tape. Then I took 30 years off to do the whole family / career thing, but I never stopped thinking about the intersection of electronics, music, and computers. By the mid 90s I knew that cheap computers had become powerful enough to generate music in real time, so I started designing what I now know is called a softsynth in my head.
Now that I can see retirement peeking over the horizon I've decided that I want to start getting back into my music. I went poking around a couple weeks ago, and was overjoyed when I discovered the ZynAddSubFx synth, which already incorporates many of my ideas, and is an open source platform that I can build upon. So I downloaded it, Audacity for recording, and Jazz++ for MIDI sequencing, borrowed my wife's little Yamaha organ as a MIDI input device ("you aren't going to take it apart, are you?" she said with a worried frown), and started having fun (you can check out my first couple attempts at http://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible).
But the big problem I have is latency - I am pretty good at aligning all the tracks for the final mix, but it is really annoying to have to play ahead of what I am hearing. Much like playing a real pipe organ - it is doable with practice but really annoying. The kind folks over on the ZynAddSubFx forums told me that ASIO and VST were the answer to all my problems (they said "your chain is too long", to which I answered, "That's a nice way of saying that the links in the chain are too bloody inefficient. My CPU can execute 220,000 instructions per sample at 44.1KHz, someone, somewhere is wasting 90% of them").
So that is where I am at, at least until I have some time to write my own stuff that doesn't waste my compute cycles with garbage like C++.
The computer I am using is plenty powerful (quad 2.4GHz with plenty of RAM, running WinXP) but I didn't have this in mind when I built it so I just have the RealTek HD audio chip on the motherboard. I am willing to spend a couple hundred US dollars to improve the audio performance. In the "nice to have" category would be an extra input for my guitar, but I can always throw together a preamp from parts in my junk box and run it into a line input. Likewise a mic input would be nice, but my RealTek already has that, and latency on the input side doesn't bother me since I can always sync it up later. On the VST side, I downloaded the free version of Podium, which seems like it has everything I need, albeit with a very steep learning curve

So I am happy to take any advice on any of the links in my chain. On the software end, I would prefer to go open source, since I much prefer just fixing things over whining about them and hoping some developer somewhere takes pity on me. And I would like to stick with the Windows platform - I realize linux is better suited to the near-real-time requirements of the job, but I hate it with a hatred born of intimate familiarity . I could be convinced to build another box that runs linux just for my music work, but I am not yet convinced that Windows can't do the job.

It has to be said I don't miss the razor blades!



I've heard about that one, but never gotten around to a hands on. I've spent enough time trying to grips with the well documented Rektor already to know that a open source version would probably infuriate me more! Is the a lot of guides to help you get to grips with ZynAddSubFx?



Yes, your hardware can do it, but no Windows isn't "natively" up to the job.

However as the guys over on the other forum point out this is where ASIO comes in. ASIO itself bypasses the frankly poor realtime audio support offered by Windows own audio system in favour of a far more direct route to the CPU.

Alongside the chart I posted before is another one for the same kit selection that does real time ASIO testing on the devices in question : http://www.dawbench.com/images/dawbench-llp-05-12-1.jpg

On the right of each set of scores is the section for I/O latency within the device drivers with the RTL result to the right of that. As a real world comparision we consider a RTL of around 10µs to be optimum for say a drummer to record and live monitor a signal with 15µs ideal for a slightly less timing critical (in relation to the drummer) guitarist. As someone playing a keyboard anything around the 10µs - 15µs mark should be what your looking for and the is plenty of options there.

For under the price point you mentioned at around the $150 point the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 (which I'm afraid hasn't been updated to that list yet) is alright and has a couple of inputs for you. It's RTL is resonable for the price as I recall it being around 11.5 µs in testing at 64 and 16ish up at 128 so it's usable. If you can go a bit over $200 at around $220 is the Native Instruments KA6 which is on the chart and 10µs @ 64 and 13µs @ 128 which are both more than usable for your requirements and pretty hard to beat at that price point. Both options are USB so should be easy to get up and running and easy to port around to other systems if you need to move it about.

ESI Juli@

Thanks Kaine. I have been shying away from the USB devices on the (apparently incorrect) assumption that one more interface in the chain (PCI --> USB --> sound card) couldn't possibly be as fast as a direct PCI --> sound card setup. But I guess if the bottleneck is elsewhere in the chain that isn't the case.


Ha! Only in our wildest dreams. It really is an "expert" synth with a million knobs and switches. It is fairly logically laid out, though, and there is a "cheat sheet" that gives a quick one-sentence-per-control overview. I was able to master it to the point where I could record "Deadly Zyn" (http://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible/deadly-zyn ) in under a week (and I found out later that the version I recorded that with was a completely brain dead, early experimental windows port). But then I come from the world of large modular analog synths so I already know exactly how to connect all the pieces together to get the sound I want.
But the reward for mastering all those knobs and switches is an absolutely awesome sound.

Thanks also to eidenk - that ESI board looks like an excellent solution as well.

Cpu and FSB play a large role for best latency intel extreme proceesor or the model down are excellent. Fast ram and ssd's help out a ton as well. Combine that with a rme AIO card and you basically have the fastest possible audio PC.

Be prepared for a 2500 to 3000 dollar computer. Also be prepared for the fact that it will only marginally beat a 1500 dollar computer 20 to 30%.

Also consider why you need to apply low latency and tricks to work around it. For instance studio or recording work is less critical in terms of drop outs than live performance.

Somethings I have found to help when playing vsti's live. First find your maximum playing latency in other words how much latency can you have and still effectively play. For me round trip midi latency from 9 ms is great keep in mind this is a 96 sample buffer at 44hz. The host states 4.5ms but in reality with all the other factors real world latency is about double that. Between 32 and 128 sample buffers at 44hz is playable, at 32 you can barley tell any latency once you hit 128 sample buffers lag starts to become noticeable in faster passages.

Also you have to factor in how many vi's can the cpu and fsb keep up with. I find that around 4 to 6 vsti's at the same time with a few effects works just fine with less performance hungry vi's. Vi's like diva can single handedly cause drop outs at lower latency.

So taking what we know about the limitations of today's technology and knowing the maximum voice count per synth is essentially the same as the limitations of a hardware synth. This can be in the form of polyphony or rom size number of effects etc. So if we treat the computer as if it had these same limits which it does it is easier to except that it is what it is.

Excepting current technology limitations and keeping computer GAS at bay is the best route. Focus on what the machine can do effectively and exploit that.

Seriously if you want speed intel extreme fast ram ssd's and RME AIO end of story.

Well I just had the strangest non-purchasing experience ever. I was all set to buy the NI KA6. The system requirements said I needed Win7, but the user's manual included Win XP setup instructions. Since I am still running XP (don't fix what ain't broke, sez I), I called NI's LA office to ask about Win XP compatibility. The person I talked to said that the "new" driver only works under Win7. I asked if I could download the old XP driver then? He said "No, that driver is no longer available" WHAT? That's just NUTS! Either these guys are doing so well that they don't need my $250, or they will be out of business soon with that kind of attitude.

Did they say which revision? The last 3 driver revisions are on the website itself.

The German office tends to be more responsive I believe than the USA one for support, but I can understand it putting you off. I really don't understand why they just wouldn't mail you the older driver :-/

I filled out the "Pre-sale online request form" with my question a couple days ago and still hadn't received a response, which is why I called. If I get a positive answer someday I may still consider buying it.
But for now I ordered a TASCAM US-600, marked down on Amazon from $299 to $139. The specs and the reviews looked good, and the price was right. I mean, my primary goal here is to work on developing the ZynAddSUbFx synth - I'm not doing anything "professional" by any stretch of the imagination, just me and my computer and my guitar up here in my man-cave having fun.
A friend of mine once observed, "You don't really care about playing music, you just like playing with the instruments." I guess they weren't too far off the mark

That I understand completely! Far more fun makeing noise, than trying to put it in some kind of constructive order

You will always have low latency when working with analog to digital and vice versea because of the conversion .

Here's my experience, in case it helps someone decide on a solid "tried and tested" system:

I FINALLY made the full upgrade, and here are the core components: Asus P8Z77-V, Intel i7-3770K, RME HDSPe AIO. Using Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit, 16 GB RAM (the upper limit of Win7 Home edition, keep that in mind if you work with huge multisample projects and think it's realistic you might need more at some point).

The display adapter is the Intel integrated solution, built right into the i7 CPU itself.

No unnecessary crap installed, but no extra special tweaks either. Regarding tweaks, just the basic stuff you can find on checklists like the NI one.

The DPC latencies surprised me. They are actually the best I've personally ever seen



The audio latencies follow suit, and I can basically just forget about that stuff, making music at buffers of anything between 32-128 samples, the actual latency in ms dictated by the sample rate I'm working in. Hasn't crashed or hicupped even once. From this experience, I can recommend this setup wholeheartedly

Of the ones on that list, if you are on a budget it looks like the Presonus Audiobox 44vsl may be the one.

I was at a drum forum yesterday and the drummers using edrums like it very much.
So, it would seem to be good for playing with critical timing.

It's also $300, which isn't too pricey.

I'd prefer to stick with pci, but the computer manufacturers have made that pretty much impossible.
Some current motherboards have pci slots, but they are emulated and don't work as well as they used to.
Last edited by P.T. on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total