What are the benefits of Reason RE's?

[headquest]

In any case, we appreciate your feedback. It's good to get some different views and I do pass them on.

Many thanks for that, and I appreciate the positive aspects you draw attention to ... there's definitely a trade off.

[festeringheap]

• One store, one place to get updates, 30 day fully functional trials on all REs, one-click purchase

I have to pick up on this one: surely - unless you genuinely believe in a totalitarian monopoly - this is a huge disadvantage to consumers, not an advantage?

There may be great business reasons why PH have decided to replace the free market economy of VST sales and distribution with a single "One Store" monopoly, selling each individual Re product at the fixed asking price, no bundles/bulk discount, no cross grades (at present) and no resale option. But to suggest this is an "advantage" to the customer seems to me a little cynical.

As someone who recently bought my first mac, I can appreciate the one stop place to download and authorize software. I spent 2 miserable days hunting down my mac equivalent software and finding all my registration numbers, and software website passwords, and dealing with every sites unique call response bullsh*t.

I still use my windows computer. And am not looking forward to the inevitable full install of OS and music software -reg/auth/passwords etc etc. Be a lot easier to be dishonest and download cracks - unfortunately, us 'honest' musicians are put through the f**king wringer at these times. So yeah, the one stop shop thingy appeals to me - one less thing to deal with.

That said, I find most REs slightly out of my price range. I have been patient and bought VST software at massively reduced prices. Some ridiculously so. So I'm always on the lookout for The Deal. Traditionally, Propellerhead has never really discounted any of their Refills, so I kinda expect the same going forward with their own stuff. Although AudioDamage did offer a 30% reduction of their Rough Rider compressor for a week, so anything is possible.

--

EDIT - ahh I see that Anosou already mentioned that price changes could/will occur. Time for another cup...

Some things to note though is that devs set their own price, they can raise and lower it at any time, they can do discounts. We're also investigating bundles (very likely) and other solutions that let developers give special deals to existing customers.

[kenporter]

Hi Mattias,

You're on KVR as well, nice!

Personally, I like the whole RE thing, it actually got me interested in using Reason again. That being said I was pretty annoyed watching the announcement video and reading the posts about the whole undo thing. Maybe you guys only looked at Logic, but Ableton Live supports undo, copying of devices as well as copying automation etc. So this is not anything new! I do like the patch browser in Reason quite a bit though.

Also, there were a few more statements that were a bit annoying. One comment was that Reason still has the great feature of showing you the automation parameters and not like CC127 or something. He forgot to mention that Reason shows you the automation parameter, but that most of the time the actual value is in absolute numbers and doesn't display the unit you're automating, i.e. Hz. So you sort of have to guess how a value between 0 and 1000 maps to Hz for example.

The other things he mentioned was that collaboration and cross platform compatibility is huge when using Reason. Of course if you want to collaborate you still have to own the same RE's, which wasn't mentioned, otherwise it won't work. If that's a given, then I think he shouldn't have made it sound like that collaboration is a no-brainer, because it's the same in the VST world. If I send a Live session, being a Mac user, to a friend he can still open it as long as he owns the same VSTs as I do regardless of being a Mac or PC user. I am not really seeing a difference there, unless one person uses AU and the other VST.

What I do like about the new RE concept is the one stop shop, you can simply go to the store and download the latest REs, updates etc. That being said, I did experience issues the other day though where my licenses where on my ignition key. I was traveling and trying to start up Reason when I was told that not all RE's were there, even though I had used the same session at home when connected to the internet and didn't have to log in or anything. Anyway, I actually had to tether to my phone, delete all licenses on the ignition key and reload them onto the key in order for it to work again without an internet connection afterwards. If I wouldn't have had the tether option, I would have been out of luck, even though I did bring my ignition key!

Don't get me wrong, I really like Reason, have been a Reason user since version 1. However, the statements that were made to make Reason 6.5 sound revolutionary at the RE press conference showed me that the Props seem to either be more about marketing or simply didn't do the research they should have done before making these claims. Just sayin'!

Ken

[highkoo]

I will honestly say that I appreciated that the marketing was so transparent and empty.
I was not tempted for one single solitary second.

Plus, seeing others involvement is informative.
It is like how support for GWB became so irrational that it was viewed as a character flaw after a certain point.
Right now if I encounter someone who is wild eyed for REs, I know something is off.

Im trolling, a bit, but those are honestly two bright sides to this whole thing for me personally.
REs might actually not infect every dev and collab I associate with...
No offense meant, certainly.

[Anosou]

Hi Mattias,

You're on KVR as well, nice!

Personally, I like the whole RE thing, it actually got me interested in using Reason again. That being said I was pretty annoyed watching the announcement video and reading the posts about the whole undo thing. Maybe you guys only looked at Logic, but Ableton Live supports undo, copying of devices as well as copying automation etc. So this is not anything new! I do like the patch browser in Reason quite a bit though.

Also, there were a few more statements that were a bit annoying. One comment was that Reason still has the great feature of showing you the automation parameters and not like CC127 or something. He forgot to mention that Reason shows you the automation parameter, but that most of the time the actual value is in absolute numbers and doesn't display the unit you're automating, i.e. Hz. So you sort of have to guess how a value between 0 and 1000 maps to Hz for example.

The other things he mentioned was that collaboration and cross platform compatibility is huge when using Reason. Of course if you want to collaborate you still have to own the same RE's, which wasn't mentioned, otherwise it won't work. If that's a given, then I think he shouldn't have made it sound like that collaboration is a no-brainer, because it's the same in the VST world. If I send a Live session, being a Mac user, to a friend he can still open it as long as he owns the same VSTs as I do regardless of being a Mac or PC user. I am not really seeing a difference there, unless one person uses AU and the other VST.

Hey Ken, good to see you!

The thing about automation parameter value is quite valid and I'm interested in seeing if we can change that. At the very least I'll send plenty of e-mails to my colleagues about it.

Regarding the undo, I use Ableton Live but not that much - can you actually just hit "cmd+z" at any time and undo every step even though you've switched between different plugins on different tracks? And if you copy an external VST device, are all the settings intact? Can you copy an entire instrument rack with external stuff? If so - cool!

About collaboration, yes, you need to own the same REs to use them. However you can ALWAYS open the track, even if you don't have the included REs. There will never be a situation where you won't be able to open your buddy's track just because he uses one send reverb you don't have. That will just be replaced by a placeholder and be quiet, then when you send the track back to your friend it will be there again. That's a bit different, right?

Good points in any case

[IncarnateX]

• CV and audio cables
• Reason-specific third party devices like audio splitters and CV manipulators, expanding modularity

These are the core points as far as the OPs question go. You simply wont have options like this with VSTis.

Current debated downsides are lack of crossgrades, no resale and higher CPU use than VSTi s. Apparently a lot of happy users are willing to pay that price though, including me. Yesterday I send a Polysix bass through Predator's 36 db filter with some lfo movements and it's ensemple effect. The result was

Cheers

[kenporter]

Hey Ken, good to see you!

The thing about automation parameter value is quite valid and I'm interested in seeing if we can change that. At the very least I'll send plenty of e-mails to my colleagues about it.

Regarding the undo, I use Ableton Live but not that much - can you actually just hit "cmd+z" at any time and undo every step even though you've switched between different plugins on different tracks? And if you copy an external VST device, are all the settings intact? Can you copy an entire instrument rack with external stuff? If so - cool!

About collaboration, yes, you need to own the same REs to use them. However you can ALWAYS open the track, even if you don't have the included REs. There will never be a situation where you won't be able to open your buddy's track just because he uses one send reverb you don't have. That will just be replaced by a placeholder and be quiet, then when you send the track back to your friend it will be there again. That's a bit different, right?

Good points in any case

Hi Mattias,

Yes, it does do that hitting CMD+Z, and you can redo things too. Live stores the undo list in case of it crashing that is how it restores your file. Yes, Reason almost never crashes so that is definitely a benefit of Reason.

Also, in regards to collaboration, Live does the same thing. You can always open the session as well. If someone doesn't own the plugin it will create a placeholder shell, so if the person who doesn't own the plugin makes any changes to the session and sends it back it would load that plugin again in my session. Same as Reason. However, Live actually does something really cool in addition I can freeze a track that I know the person doesn't have the plugin for. That person can treat the frozen track like an audio file, cut, paste, mute, etc. When I get the session back, I can unfreeze the track and the edits will show up as a MIDI clip again for further editing on my end for example. Really cool! I don't have to bounce that track before sending it to my collaborator, and then make the adjustments once I get the session back.

Obviously, I don't want this to turn into a Live vs. Reason thing. I have great expectations for Reason and I hope that a lot will be improved for Reason 7, especially the CPU issues and the parameter displays, more and better key commands, and let me type in values on the mixer instead of having to use the mouse.

My point was that the RE press conference was a bit annoying to me since I was thinking hmmm Live can do this, and some of the things even Logic and Cubase could do, when they were announced to be this revolutionary thing without doing the proper research on the Props part. It kind of devalues the significance of Reason 6.5 to me.

What would have actually been pretty cool in regards to collaboration is if the person doesn't own the RE that it would create sort of a black box that can't be edited in sound, but still plays the sound for the collaborator rather than being silent.

Ken

[ShawnG]

[quote]Yes, it does do that hitting CMD+Z, and you can redo things too. Live stores the undo list in case of it crashing that is how it restores your file.[/quote]

I'm going to call this one for props though. Ableton does have plugin undo, but is neither as robust or as universal as Reason's. Now it may be fabulous when using actual ableton devices, but in VST land, it only works on some plugs, everything else just gets deleted when you hit ctrl-z and in my experience it seems to forget a lot of parameter changes, it will remember a few, and then delete the plug. Since the RE launch was all about EXTERNAL plugins and having them be equal citizen's in the reason rack, the comparison is valid and striking, Reason's undo is much more robust, and there is no difference between reason devices and external RE's.

so when you say "ableton has this already" it's sort of true, but not to the extent that makes a valid comparison. when dealing with external plugins, ableton has to deal with the VST standard, which is very very loose, and it's down to the plugin maker to implement any sort of functionality like that. that's why it is a very fair point for authors of a strict plugin standard to tout that as a feature, you just can't have that certainty with VST's. Whether or not unlimited undo is really important to you is another thing, but the advantage is to Reason if it is.

[kenporter]

Yes, it does do that hitting CMD+Z, and you can redo things too. Live stores the undo list in case of it crashing that is how it restores your file.

I'm going to call this one for props though. Ableton does have plugin undo, but is neither as robust or as universal as Reason's. Now it may be fabulous when using actual ableton devices, but in VST land, it only works on some plugs, everything else just gets deleted when you hit ctrl-z and in my experience it seems to forget a lot of parameter changes, it will remember a few, and then delete the plug. Since the RE launch was all about EXTERNAL plugins and having them be equal citizen's in the reason rack, the comparison is valid and striking, Reason's undo is much more robust, and there is no difference between reason devices and external RE's.

so when you say "ableton has this already" it's sort of true, but not to the extent that makes a valid comparison. when dealing with external plugins, ableton has to deal with the VST standard, which is very very loose, and it's down to the plugin maker to implement any sort of functionality like that. that's why it is a very fair point for authors of a strict plugin standard to tout that as a feature, you just can't have that certainty with VST's. Whether or not unlimited undo is really important to you is another thing, but the advantage is to Reason if it is.

Hmm, what VSTs do you have where this doesn't work? I've always been able to undo settings in my sessions. It may not have an unlimited undo but it was never an issue in the real world. I'd be curious to know where it doesn't work for you. Live operates based on undos meaning that if it crashes it restores the session based on remembering the undo history. If it wouldn't work on some VSTs then it wouldn't be able to restore the session correctly after a crash. Also, whatever parameter is selected on a VST shows up in the automation lane which then undo works as well. At least it does this for the VSTs that I own.

But you're correct if Reasons point is an unlimited undo history or Live doesn't support undos for all VSTs then maybe Reason is better than other DAWs in that aspect. However, the VSTs I use support undos and the way undo was presented during the press conference was still a bit misleading. It was literally said that Reason is the only DAW with an undo function of "plugins" and that other DAWs would simply delete the entire channel (indirectly pointing to Logic)...which I still think is misleading.

All that said, I do like Reason and I have bought into the RE concept and have purchased quite a bit of REs already. If it seems that I complain, it's only because what was said in the video was either purposely false marketing or simply research not done properly.

Ken

[ShawnG]

Just from my quick and dirty test: NI stuff (I tested Kontakt, MASSIVE, and B4 II) Live remembered ONE parameter change and then did not undo any further back, if I clicked ctrl-z more than a couple times it undid the plugin and deleted it. In addition on the NI plugs, it would not undo program changes, only parameter ones. Cakewalk synths (tested z3ta+2 and Rapture and a couple sonar audio plugs) had NO undo, regardless of number of parameter changes or bank changes I did, a single ctrl-z would remove the plug. OLGA worked well with any number of parameter changes, but changing the preset could not be undone. I tested a few old freeware synthedit plugs, and surprisingly some would allow some undo, some would not.

So, no, I would not say that Props were guilty of overlooking anything, or of false advertising. Live does not do what reason does in that department, It can't. It's not Ableton's fault, their undo is very effective in their native devices (I tested that too, works just as well as Reason's as far as I can tell) but Ableton does not have any way of ensuring that all plugins are made to a certain standard with VST's. Props has much more control over the format with RE's and if they want unlimited undo they can have it.

[kenporter]

Just from my quick and dirty test: NI stuff (I tested Kontakt, MASSIVE, and B4 II) Live remembered ONE parameter change and then did not undo any further back, if I clicked ctrl-z more than a couple times it undid the plugin and deleted it. In addition on the NI plugs, it would not undo program changes, only parameter ones. Cakewalk synths (tested z3ta+2 and Rapture and a couple sonar audio plugs) had NO undo, regardless of number of parameter changes or bank changes I did, a single ctrl-z would remove the plug. OLGA worked well with any number of parameter changes, but changing the preset could not be undone. I tested a few old freeware synthedit plugs, and surprisingly some would allow some undo, some would not.

So, no, I would not say that Props were guilty of overlooking anything, or of false advertising. Live does not do what reason does in that department, It can't. It's not Ableton's fault, their undo is very effective in their native devices (I tested that too, works just as well as Reason's as far as I can tell) but Ableton does not have any way of ensuring that all plugins are made to a certain standard with VST's. Props has much more control over the format with RE's and if they want unlimited undo they can have it.

Well, I stand corrected then. I don't have any of the plugins you've listed above and I am on a Mac so maybe that could be the reason. However, even if it is, you're point is obviously valid that it's not implemented as well as it is in Reason. So yes based on your description above Reason's undo is better.

Now prove me wrong on the collaboration and parameter part of my post and I'll buy you a beer!

Ken

Edit: I realized that you listed Massive, which I actually do own and yes you're correct it remembers only one undo level for Massive. I never noticed this before to be perfectly honest, and again I stand corrected! All the other stuff I mentioned still holds true though. I can copy devices etc to other tracks with settings intact, even groups of devices. And it can do undo between different VSTs. Again though as you've mentioned, and being able to see it myself using Massive, it doesn't seem to work for all VSTs (not part of the SDK requirement maybe?). So, Reason is better in that regard!

[ShawnG]

I have no intention of challenging the collaboration part, I think that's a valid point. I guess props could say that the other user could demo any of the missing plugs for thirty days, and use it normally, so if that's worth a beer, I'll drink it! Of course if the other user already ran out his demo period, we still have the problem. TBH when I collaborate, which is seldom, I usually send stems rather than project files but that WAS one of Reason's great strengths for some though. I actually worry about refills more than collaboration. now that everyone has different devices, the freeware and payware refill scene has got to be affected negatively I would think. I have yet to purchase any RE's but I did download the two freebies, and I was a beta tester. waiting for some devices that are really needed for my stuff, like maybe the rumored VB3 from GSi and hopefully a decent Guitar Amp Sim package.

[Anosou]

Quick jump back to parameter automation! What you said doesn't seem to be correct?

Create a Pulveriser for example and automate the filter - it's show in Hz. Create a Polysix and automate the filter, it's shown in their scale (0-10).

So automation DOES show whatever values the RE developer has chosen for a parameter.

Do you have any example when it doesn't? Because if so you might've found a bug

[melime]

• CV and audio cables
• Reason-specific third party devices like audio splitters and CV manipulators, expanding modularity

this is a developer daw problem and Reaper has these possibilities like audio splitting and parameter modulation for every knob and slider in vst's and has undo / Redo for all vst's ! and the thing of all things .... you get DIVA and every freaking other plugin and not have to hope that your favorite vst becomes RE . LOL

[headquest]

Live operates based on undos meaning that if it crashes it restores the session based on remembering the undo history. If it wouldn't work on some VSTs then it wouldn't be able to restore the session correctly after a crash.

Ken

Hey Ken. The "undo" is inconsistent ... which is perhaps one reason why Ableton * doesn't* always restore a session correctly after a crash

The good news is that Ableton does *mostly* restore the session though. On the very rare occasion when I have had a crash with Ableton, the audio files and other core information was all restored correctly, and it only took a few moments to get properly back up and running.

Reason on the other hand seems to have no crash recovery built in at all, and to me this is a far more serious issue for Propellerhead to address. Having an unlimited "Undo" is good news of course ... but unlike crash recovery, which is serious stuff, undo isn't a deal breaker. Like any piece of software, Reason can crash. Or - perhaps more to the point - computers can crash whilst Reason is running. In the absence of any crash recovery, I have lost significant projects in their entirety, and even had to uninstall and reinstall Reason completely after a crash in order to get back up and running.

Having confidence in the stability of a programme is absolutely top of the list for me, and I used to have that with Reason, which was a key selling point to me. But having proper crash recovery in place is fundamental to that confidence, and the painful discovery that it doesn't apparently exist was, for me, where everything changed.