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The Pirating of my Library

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Moderator: NineVoltAudio

KVRian
 
941 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:38 pm

nineofkings wrote:
murnau wrote:hi,

i dont think that you will lost real customers. 99% of audiowarez-"users" only collecting what's available.maybe a few of them really try your library and for sure even this few are not potential buyers (at least for now). with or without a pirated version this are not people you can reach.

i understand your trouble and i dont like audiowarez either but the conclusion isn't right imo.


Not so sure about this. A friend of mine is an excellent budding producer who uses mainly pirated materials.


Maybe you should direct him to this thread?
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
KVRAF
 
1615 posts since 11 Dec, 2005, from Möllevången, Malmö, Sweden

Postby jensa; Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:53 pm

nineofkings wrote:
murnau wrote:hi,

i dont think that you will lost real customers. 99% of audiowarez-"users" only collecting what's available.maybe a few of them really try your library and for sure even this few are not potential buyers (at least for now). with or without a pirated version this are not people you can reach.

i understand your trouble and i dont like audiowarez either but the conclusion isn't right imo.


Not so sure about this. A friend of mine is an excellent budding producer who uses mainly pirated materials.
I don't believe it either. Most of my music making "acquaintances" in my town isn't buying much audio applications/plugins. Most of them are people with low income part time jobs to be able to stay at home to make music to play live or getting it released on some mostly obscure label. One is a promoter running around putting up posters for clubs and gigs but still use warez in his studio he has with some other guy. He want YOU to go to his event and pay some money to get in, but he can't pay for what he's using in his own creative productions. Sigh. Even a friend of mine running a studio has quite a lot of warez even though he have bought some. It's to easy to just say "Oh, this track would sound nice with this effect. Let's see if it's available somewhere." and 5 minutes later it's downloaded, installed and used on that track.

The problem is, I've been discussing with some of them and that's a very good way to get to be considered as a "disturbing element" and get excluded. There's not much I can do about it but I wish there were. I hate it.
KVRian
 
940 posts since 26 Nov, 2005

Postby JJBiener; Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:40 pm

First off, don't believe that nothing can be done. There is still a lot that can be done. Some of it is through the legal system, and some of it is through collective action.

On the legal side, a small change needs to be made to DMCA. Right now if you send a take-down notice, it only applies to a specific file or group of files. It doesn't apply to other files containing the exact same content. The change needs to be made so that only one take-down notice has to be submitted for all copies of the copyrighted content now on the site and those that might be submitted in the future.

On the collective side, there needs to be a boycott of companies and an email campaign to companies who advertise on pirate sites. Pirate sites exist because the make money. Remove the money from the pirate sites and the vast majority will simply go away.

Not all companies will heed boycotts or email campaigns, so the second front has to be the middle men. I am talking about the people who collect and distribute internet payments like Paypal. They need to withhold payments to pirate sites from advertisers or members/customers. This can I be done in response to public pressure or it can be done through the legal system. I would think most would prefer to respond to the public rather than the government.

There also has to be a public awareness campaign. Make no mistake. We have a very vocal and powerful enemy. The one I speak of is Google. Before anyone thinks I exaggerate, Google is spending millions every year to eliminate copyright protections. If you don't believe me, check out the funding of those groups who always weigh in against copyrights. From Lessig's Creative Commons to the EFF to countless tech blogs, you will find Google as a primary source of funds. They also spend millions directly lobbying Congress and contributing to politicians who support their cause. Divest yourself from Google and spread the word to your friends and family. Next year I will get rid of my Android phone and I will be 100% Google-free. There are other providers for everything Google provides. If you create copyrighted works, Google is the enemy.

There is a solution to this problem. Don't give up and join the fight.
This space has been unintentionally left blank.
KVRist
 
60 posts since 16 Dec, 2010

Postby Tight Snare; Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:19 pm

I feel for the OP. That must be totally demoralising. I totally get the thing about the weight of drums! (Oh how I wish I'd taken up the bamboo flute sometimes.....)

A sad consequence which your post made me think about is the *perception* among would-be sample library makers that piracy makes it too much effort and too much of a risky investment to be worth attempting some new library project.

I try to look at it objectively though. Digital media/ technology and the internet enable and empower us 'musicians' (meaning anyone working with music and sound) as much as it hinders us or slaps us in the face. Overall it is moving in a positive direction. (Who would want to go back to yester-year....... seriously?)

My point is (I think) that everyone is always trying to use new technologies and 'new paradigms' to outwit everyone else (if that's how we choose to look at it)..... But obviously piracy is not just 'outwitting the previous generation by taking advantage of new technology', piracy is immoral. It is theft, albeit digital theft which is a new and different kind.

But in many ways theft itself is based around the concepts of scarcity and access, rather than morality per se. Or more accurately, it is the degree of scarcity and limited access which determines the morality of taking or using something without asking.

If I steal the air in front of your face by breathing it in the 'stolen air' will immediately be replaced by more air which is no different to the air I stole. So it can't really be called immoral - or even theft.

But if I steal your shoes that's like a major hassle for you, so that is definitely theft and it is immoral. The less shoes there are in the world (the less access we have to shoes) the more immoral that theft becomes.

Am I justifying piracy? No...... it's still totally wrong, obviously.

But what I AM saying is that we might be headed towards that 'zero scarcity, zero value' point anyway even WITHOUT factoring in piracy. If enough people start giving away their music, DAW's, samples, webspace, plugins, apps etc for free then these things might become effectively 'zero scarcity, zero value' anyway.

The amount of free stuff on the web can only increase over time (I mean legitimately free - but I guess pirated stuff speeds up the process). Eventually we should reach the point where whatever it is you want, you can download a free one which will be half decent.

Personally I think this is the point at which piracy will either cease - or cease to mean anything - depending on how you choose to look at it.

Clapping your hands and humming a tune is something we can all do for free - and this makes it almost completely worthless as music (economically speaking).

If recording a tune with a bunch of free sample libraries and free apps becomes as easy as clapping your hands and humming a tune then it will also become worthless economically. We're almost there, but not quite...

Maybe we NEED to hit this 'zero scarcity, zero value' point before we can start to value music properly again and develop a natural hierarchy where hard work, imagination, investment (etc) gets rewarded.

My hope is that in a world of unlimited music made by everyone and his dog working with a bunch of free gear, music making will become even more obviously split into two (or more) camps......... 'noodling around probably with mostly free stuff' vs 'making music which is genuinely original, thus scarce and thus has value and makes money'.

At the moment we are still caught between two natural equilibriums (1) 'only a select few get access to half decent studios and gear' and (2) 'everybody has access to half decent studios and gear'.

When we finally reach the second state I predict 'making tunes in a DAW with decent quality gear' will be the new 'humming a tune while you do the dishes' and this group will already be being catered for by a bunch of free stuff. It will become a 'hobby' and as such they aren't going to be buying much new gear anyway - so even if they use pirated stuff they'd never have bought it anyway.... and they certainly won't be making any money from it.

Developers like you (the OP) will either be selling (ie making actual money) from the more pro musicians who are also making money - ie the same crowd who (back in the day) would have been the ones talented (or ruthless) enough to find their way into proper studios..... or maybe you'll make money from selling gear at super low prices to everyone. Or maybe some other kind of model will emerge... I don't think it really matters TBH ... the main problem for devs (I would imagine, but what do I know) is that the market is neither recreational nor professional but a mixture of both. I'm sure many customers don't even know what they are. I bet a lot thought they were (aspiring) pros until the economy tanked, now they're invested in music gear (as devs are) but facing the reality of being a hobbyist with an expensive addiction to new gear.

Personally I'd like to see (a healthy sort of) elitism in music again, and paradoxically I think that can only be achieved by giving everyone access to everything they need to make a half decent tune.

Piracy can't be forced away UNLESS we want to give up our internet freedoms to 'the powers that be' - who will be more than happy to take them away from us! But even if we did give up those freedoms piracy would continue anyway, and we'll have given up our internet freedoms as well (currently the only hope for civilisation at the moment). Doh!

I believe piracy can't be beaten by force, but it can be made irrelevant. Never in the history of music has the music gear market been as big as it is now. It's not that there are suddenly more musicians, it's just that the market is not 'supposed' to be this big. It's going through a transitional phase and there have been (for the last decade and a bit) a lot more consumers than normal. They are a lot more 'non viable' musicians out there.

And by that I mean that for most of these consumers the gear being sold to them will make them zero money, it will just waste their money and time - unless they already accept making music as a hobby, a form of entertainment by itself - in which case it's all cool. Nothing wrong with doing something you love for nothing. But developers shouldn't expect to be able to sell gear to them constantly and for all eternity....

Piracy might be wrong (it obviously is) but at the same time it is stupid to expect the majority of the market to continually fork out money for what is fast becoming the 21st century equivalent of humming a tune while you do the dishes. A lot of developers market their gear as the 'way to achieve success as a pro musician' ... buy this gizmo and you'll finally be able to 'make it'. This is a vicious lie of course! ;)

With so much 'delusion-inducing' marketing over the last 15 years or so it's hardly surprising this mentality (gear addiction) continues even after the funds run out and the delusion becomes reality.... Just saying...

But when we truly reach 'zero scarcity, zero value' I believe things will balance out and *stabilise* again at a new kind of equilibrium and developers will at least know where they stand. I would imagine *knowing where you stand* in terms of the realistic viability of some future product is the most important thing. I mean these days you're unlikely to make much money selling a basic sample library of an 808 because the market is awash with cheap/free 808 sample packs (zero scarcity, zero value), but that would only be a tragedy if the market had dropped off SUDDENLY and you'd invested a lot of time and money in a brand new 808 sample library (assuming that's even possible with an 808 library ... but you know what I mean).

To summarise: I could be talking out my arse about literally everything :wink:
KVRian
 
637 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Postby dayjob; Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:38 pm

murnau wrote:hi,

i dont think that you will lost real customers. 99% of audiowarez-"users" only collecting what's available.maybe a few of them really try your library and for sure even this few are not potential buyers (at least for now). with or without a pirated version this are not people you can reach.

i understand your trouble and i dont like audiowarez either but the conclusion isn't right imo.


i more or less agree with you but i think many people would be surprised to find out all the pro musicians, producers and sound designers who use cracks, share music and sound libraries...

in some ways it's just a continuation of what was going on a long time ago.

producers used to share drum sounds on dat tapes back in the day. they weren't necessarily libraries for sale but were sessions recorded at studios of session drummers and the sounds would get picked apart and then libraries sort of came out of those... hit records are formulaic and that even includes snare sounds, toms, overheads etc.. they'd just plug them into the new thing and go from there..

not saying it was a standard operating procedure but it certainly happened enough to start the chatter about it in the 90s

not making excuses but.. anyway - there are a lot of musicians and producers these days who are just keeping their heads above water so they tend to buy things when they can and some times use pirated things until they can buy.. it's just the way it is.

the irony is that if people made a little more money from their audio related work then they'd have more money to buy audio related gear/software etc but the pie is getting smaller and smaller or something..

i have nothing very constructive to add other than saying.. sorry your library got pirated. that does indeed suck. i hope the people who actually use it will pay for it and give you your due $$$ for your hard work.
KVRist
 
151 posts since 28 Feb, 2010

Postby DavyAch; Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:28 am

FWIW - Two quick points:

1. Taking anyone's goods or services that they offer for sale is theft and wrong - just because it is harder to police, or more people turn a blind eye doesn't change that fact, irrespective of anyone's justifications, explanations or attempts at philosophising.

2. More positively, this thread drew me to your site and I've just purchased the Duo Tongue Drum and am considering the Mbira...so you have a new paying customer!
KVRAF
 
2667 posts since 18 Apr, 2002, from Ogden, UT

Postby audiojunkie; Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:53 am

Untamed Spirit wrote:is there not a touch of irony in all of this?
I wonder what all the instrument makers get from sampled libraries.

I am not condoning pirating in any way shape or form, but do find it depends on your perspective as to whether something is fair or not.

Very very rarely, do I ever see anyone questioning whether sampled instruments are hurting instrument manufacturers or those that specialize in playing.

On a personal note, I am a far better player than I was 10 years ago, but get called in for session work far less than I did back then. Almost definitely because of the prevailing use of sampled instruments. So nine volt, congratulations on carving out a niche for yourself, but sampled libraries have definitely taken $ out of my pocket.


Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.... It's always interesting to get new perspectives on things! Kind of a "circle of life" thing going on here....












...I feel a song coming on! :P





...Seriously though, I hadn't really considered things from that angle before.


:oops:

--Sean
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.
KVRian
 
618 posts since 5 May, 2008, from France
 

Postby thysm00; Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:35 am

Hi Kyle,

We went through the same thing at acousticsamples.net, so i completely understand what you are going through.

We had (and still have) a few of our libraries pirated, and when they came out on pirat websites, the sales literally stopped...

We found a solution and some users definitely did not like it, but others actually loved it, we ditched kontakt and went to UVI (MachFive 3 player), and this has been the best move our company made, as it is protected with iLok, we are sure that every copy that is out is actually a legitimate one.
Btw, in terms of coding for the script, the UVI script is just WAY better and a lot easier to use ;)

People will say that iLok is a pain, but a lot of the people that say that actually are the guys that use pirated material, we even had "customers" saying things like, "i never bought anything from you, but now that you use iLok, i am sure i will never do so".

Anyway, NI does not really care about the protection of software and as much as i would love if everybody was just nice and would pay for software, it is not the case and will never be, there will always be people that crack software and people to use them.

Just my two cents ;)

Arno
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KVRAF
 
9023 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:02 am

thysm00 wrote:People will say that iLok is a pain


So far it has been good for me and my MF3 licence. BUT!


iLok site not working in Firefox 4+, Opera and Chrome is an ABSOLUTE JOKE! I have uninstalled IE from my system as I don't want to look at it ever again, nor do I plan on using it ever again. So this is the ultimate fallacy on their part. How long are they "working on compatibility with FF 4" now? Hell, we're on FF 18 now even. :D Or are they updating it at all? Somehow I think they're not updating it at all. This is a very bad thing about iLok, from my perspective. Get on in 2012/13, iLok!
Pick Me Pick me!
 
7537 posts since 11 Mar, 2002, from in a state of confusion
 

Postby VitaminD; Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:19 am

NineVoltAudio wrote:One pirate site currently lists 13,699 illegal downloads of TAIKO 2. If each person had paid $1.00 for his or her copy from this site, it would amount to more than the library has grossed so far. I disclose this information to illustrate the point that these libraries are investments, and getting them "in the black" takes time, effort and further capital to promote them.


But you know you can't use that as an accurate figure. Surely some of those are people downloading it without knowing what it is.. others redownloading broken/corrupt packages.. and some that know what it is but were never interested in purchasing in the first place.

but even if you believe 1/4 of that figure.. or ~3245 people did download it and would have purchased.. you could always charge $5 USD and net more than you are grossing now... right??

Look at the IKM group buys for proof that discounted group buys work and well...


In the same light that people download large sample packs simply because they are expensive... others buy heavily discounted sample packs simply because they are typically expensive.
"Use the talents you possess, for the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except the best." - Henry Van Dyke
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KVRian
 
1274 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:19 am

JJBiener wrote:On the legal side, a small change needs to be made to DMCA. Right now if you send a take-down notice, it only applies to a specific file or group of files. It doesn't apply to other files containing the exact same content. The change needs to be made so that only one take-down notice has to be submitted for all copies of the copyrighted content now on the site and those that might be submitted in the future.

this is insanity. consider the following.

i like ripping my CD's to FLAC. FLAC is a lossless compression format, so each time you encode, you end up with exactly the same file. consider i encode my CD and put it into a file locker, to back up or to simply have access to my music from anywhere else in the world.

let's say someone else rips the same album and puts the files on the same file locker. since each album is identical to other copies of itself, those files will be identical to what i have put in my file locker.

what you're proposing is, if someone puts links to those files on the web and someone DMCA's it, i lose my files. just out of the blue, poof - and they're gone. moreover, if someone has already DMCA'd those files, i won't even be able to upload them, and marked as a filthy pirate as a bonus. is that what you want?

how do you differentiate between legitimate backups and illegal files when you have gazillions of files?

and i'm only highlighting one particular brand of crazy in your message. almost everything about it is wrong and will lead to unintended consequences while doing next to nothing to stop piracy.
From Russia with love
KVRist
 
100 posts since 30 Aug, 2007, from Earth

Postby quoid; Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:07 pm

thysm00 wrote:Hi Kyle,

Anyway, NI does not really care about the protection of software and as much as i would love if everybody was just nice and would pay for software, it is not the case and will never be, there will always be people that crack software and people to use them.

Arno


Really? I thought kontakt was uncrackable? Or at least contact based libraries (using kontakt's built in protection, so that means people who work directly with NI, which 9volt doesn't, i think).

Pirating really sucks, especially when it involves some awesome people losing out on cash like Kyle and his very nice and brilliant partner:)

That being said, most people pirate. I think we would all be surprised to see how many very successful people in the audio industry pirate some software here and there. There are a lot of them.
KVRian
 
1454 posts since 13 Oct, 2002

Postby Breeze; Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:18 pm

audiojunkie wrote:
Untamed Spirit wrote:is there not a touch of irony in all of this?.... On a personal note, I am a far better player than I was 10 years ago, but get called in for session work far less than I did back then. Almost definitely because of the prevailing use of sampled instruments. So nine volt, congratulations on carving out a niche for yourself, but sampled libraries have definitely taken $ out of my pocket.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.... It's always interesting to get new perspectives on things! Kind of a "circle of life" thing going on here....

You could go as far back as when music first started appearing on wax cylinders on this one! Think about it: before that, there would simply be no music without a musician present. Think about how many jobs that killed off. :shrug:
KVRer
 
5 posts since 11 Feb, 2006, from Tokyo

Postby debris54; Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:34 pm

I don't have time to read all the responses, so apologies if this is redundant. Going after sidebar advertisers is an effective way to deal with pirate sites... no? ... my memory continues to be fairly trashed (head injury) but I recall someone writing a long article about this.. 'legit' companies certainly do NOT want to be associated with pirates... and pirates make money from ads... no? ... so, if I recall correctly... get in touch with the legit co. and inform them... they will usually respond quickly... (once again... if my memory is correct)
KVRist
 
136 posts since 15 Nov, 2011

Postby J-Rokujuushi; Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:35 pm

This article made me think of something. Why are the Duo and Stickbreaker libraries being discontinued? Doesn't that just stop the people who want to pay for them and make piracy the only option?
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