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Making a perfect Snare with ZynAddSubFx

Official support for: zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net

Moderator: paulnasca

[ZynAddSubFx]Johannes
KVRist
 
36 posts since 9 Nov, 2012

Postby [ZynAddSubFx]Johannes; Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:45 am Making a perfect Snare with ZynAddSubFx

Greetings,

I am using ZynAddSubFx (via LMMS) and I would like to create a perfect snare drum. In the internet I found this article. Look at the picture at the very bottom (more specially: HERE). I really would like to rebuild it, but there are many things I don't know :(

Okay, first for the white noise (on the bottom):
  1. I use simple white noise
  2. The first filter I add is a lowpass filter (Insertion effects->EQ->Lp1 or Lp2?)
  3. The second filter will be a noise filter (A Notch filter? The probably Insertion effects->EQ->"N2"?)
  4. Now, what is VCA, and AR contour generator?
Then, for the upper part:
  1. First, I need some OSCs... easy. But how do I tell them to use 111 Hz for the triangle OSC, but 330 Hz for the sine OSC on the same note pressed?
  2. The frequency shift for the triangles can probably just simulated with two triangle generators?

Now, in the end, I play all those together? What is a CV controlled mixer?

Thanks for answers in advance.

Regards,
Johannes
dstr
KVRer
 
3 posts since 15 Jun, 2004

Postby dstr; Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:30 pm

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.

The article on soundonsound you mentioned is based on conventional analog synthesizers. But ZynAddSubFx provides much better functionality for creating drum sounds than those. Especially SUBsynth is able to approximate the frequency spectrum of a drum and its decay much better than a conventional synth could do with only a noise generator and a few filters.

A few months ago I modelled a snare (and other drum sounds) with ZynAddSubFx (see www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=352977 or www.straulino.ch/zynaddsubfx (http://www.straulino.ch/zynaddsubfx)). If you like, you can take my "Natural Snare" as a starting point for developing your "Perfect Snare".

My snare drum sound consists of 4 components:
1. Stick
2. Drum head
3. Drum resonances
4. Snares
Two of them are generated by ADDsynth, two by SUBsynth. ZynAddSubFx does not allow to use more than one SUBsynth instance in one instrument. Therefore I use the "Kit" mode to overcome this limitation (combination of up to 16 instruments).

Short description of the 4 components:
1. Stick (ADDsynth): Short "click" sound of the stick hitting the drum head.
2. Drum head (ADDsynth): Oscillation of the head (sine wave, maybe some harmonics). During the first few milliseconds the frequency of the oscillation is higher because stick pressure on the head increases its tension (→ frequency envelope).
3. Drum resonances (SUBsynth): Drum resonances are usually non harmonic overtones of the drum head frequency. Unfortunately, SUBsynth is only able to produce harmonic overtones. Therefore we need a workaround: Find the greatest common divisor of the frequencies of the different drum resonances (approximately) and set this divisor as base frequency in SUBsynth. Now all resonance frequencies are harmonics of this base frequency. The harmonics in SUBsynth can now be set to the appropriate level. Bandwidth, bandwidth envelope and filter stages have a large impact on sound as well. Try different settings until it sounds most realistic.
4. Snares (SUBsynth): Rattle frequency spectrum can be modelled with harmonics in SUBsynth. Bandwidth plays an important role here as well (set filter stages to 1).

I hope that the above-mentioned is useful for your drum sound development with ZynAddSubFx and I look forward to hearing your "Perfect Snare" ;-)

Dario
User avatar
folderol
KVRAF
 
4326 posts since 5 Aug, 2006, from UK - Here!

Postby folderol; Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:12 pm

Some very interesting info here, way above my capabilities. I would love to see.. er.. hear a really good zyn drumkit
It wasn't me! (well, actually, it probably was)
[ZynAddSubFx]Johannes
KVRist
 
36 posts since 9 Nov, 2012

Postby [ZynAddSubFx]Johannes; Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:25 pm

Hey,

thanks a lot, Dario. Sorry, I haven't expected an answer to this post anymore!

I already downloaded your snare drum, it sounds really cool! Though I do not understand the theory behind it. I have no idea about what "harmonics" are and what they are good for. Do you know any good source about learning that stuff?

Btw: In the meantime I have made a very simple snare which I really started to like:
  • I had a kick drum which I played on C2. It was simply a very fast dropping bass, nothing more.
  • Then I played G2 for my snare.
  • Additionally, I gave it a simple whitenoise (with a slappy amplitude envelope)


I liked the result, it sounded useful for drum and bass, though to artificial for "natural" sounds. Is it a common technique to use the bass drop of your kick drum (pitched up) for your snare drum?

Regards,
Johannes
dstr
KVRer
 
3 posts since 15 Jun, 2004

Postby dstr; Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:43 am

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.

Hi Johannes,

Here are some information sources that may be helpful:

- Basic information about harmonics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonics)

- Harmonics from a physical point of view:
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/ (http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/)
(Lesson 4 & 5)

- ZynAddSubFX's concept of harmonics (strongly recommended!):
http://zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/doc_0.html (http://zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/doc_0.html)

- Vibration of a drum head (theoretical):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrations ... cular_drum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrations_of_a_circular_drum)

- As you already know, www.soundonsound.com (http://www.soundonsound.com) (especially "synth secrets" series) provides a lot of interesting information on sound analysis and synthesis.


"Is it a common technique to use the bass drop of your kick drum (pitched up) for your snare drum?":

In order to answer your question, we can have a look at what happens (simplified) when a stick hits a real drum head. As soon as the stick touches the membrane it starts to transfer his kinetic energy to the membrane. The membrane will be tensioned until it has absorbed all kinetic energy from the stick (stick "stands still"). Then the process inverses. By relieving its tension the membrane transfers a part of its energy back to the stick (pushes it back). This change in tension of the membrane is what causes the short rise and drop of frequency during the first few milliseconds of sound.
How much time this process takes and how much the frequency changes depends primarily on two factors: momentum of the stick (mass x velocity) and consistency of the membrane. That means that a heavy stick played hard will cause a higher frequency peak, whereas a light stick played gently will cause only small frequency changes.
Back to your question: Yes, the membranes of a kick drum and a snare drum produce their sound based on the same physical effect. But their membranes are different as well as the sticks hitting them. So if you want to transfer the frequency envelope of a kick drum to a snare drum you will probably have to adapt the frequency peak and the duration of the frequency envelope.

By the way, the vibration of the drum head is only one part of the drum sound. The drum body also plays an important role because its geometry causes acoustic resonances. And for a snare drum, there are the rattling snares as a further characteristical sound component.

Kind regards,
Dario
[ZynAddSubFx]Johannes
KVRist
 
36 posts since 9 Nov, 2012

Postby [ZynAddSubFx]Johannes; Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:22 am

Hey Dario,

dstr wrote:- Harmonics from a physical point of view:
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/sound/
(Lesson 4 & 5)

This one was really interesting. Thanks!

dstr wrote:Yes, the membranes of a kick drum and a snare drum produce their sound based on the same physical effect. But their membranes are different as well as the sticks hitting them. So if you want to transfer the frequency envelope of a kick drum to a snare drum you will probably have to adapt the frequency peak and the duration of the frequency envelope.

Okay, this seems to be either an exact (complicated) calculation, or some experiments trying to approximate the sound. I'm lucky you did that for me :).

Kind regards,
Johannes
ishkabbible
KVRist
 
124 posts since 16 Jul, 2012, from Vail, AZ

Postby ishkabbible; Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:41 am

dstr wrote:A few months ago I modelled a snare (and other drum sounds) with ZynAddSubFx...
Dario

I actually found your snare patch on your website from a google search, never did see the discussion here. I have been tweaking it to make my "perfect snare". Am working on a complete ZynAddSubFx drum kit (currently working on cymbals - they are a bitch) - you can hear the modified snare and some of the other instruments in this short clip I posted.
http://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible/zynful-drummer
User avatar
folderol
KVRAF
 
4326 posts since 5 Aug, 2006, from UK - Here!

Postby folderol; Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:10 pm

ishkabbible wrote:
dstr wrote:A few months ago I modelled a snare (and other drum sounds) with ZynAddSubFx...
Dario

I actually found your snare patch on your website from a google search, never did see the discussion here. I have been tweaking it to make my "perfect snare". Am working on a complete ZynAddSubFx drum kit (currently working on cymbals - they are a bitch) - you can hear the modified snare and some of the other instruments in this short clip I posted.
http://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible/zynful-drummer

Really impressed with this :tu:

As soon as you think the kit is ready do let us know... we wants it :hyper:
It wasn't me! (well, actually, it probably was)
ishkabbible
KVRist
 
124 posts since 16 Jul, 2012, from Vail, AZ

Postby ishkabbible; Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:39 pm

folderol wrote:
ishkabbible wrote:
dstr wrote:A few months ago I modelled a snare (and other drum sounds) with ZynAddSubFx...
Dario

I actually found your snare patch on your website from a google search, never did see the discussion here. I have been tweaking it to make my "perfect snare". Am working on a complete ZynAddSubFx drum kit (currently working on cymbals - they are a bitch) - you can hear the modified snare and some of the other instruments in this short clip I posted.
http://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible/zynful-drummer

Really impressed with this :tu:

As soon as you think the kit is ready do let us know... we wants it :hyper:


I'd be happy to share. Just discovered the repository here on KVR (and downloaded your collection - looks like some cool stuff in there). Assuming I can find it again I will start uploading my collected patches. I will have to come up with better names for them, though - most of them just have cryptic "zyn3_track5_v2" type names. If I wait till the kit is "ready" you will never see it :?
Don't know if you checked out the later version of that clip: "Ishkabbible's eTune Opus 1 Number 4" - the snare doesn't sound as good on that one (there are some "issues" when moving a patch from the standalone synth to Jackoo's VST version) but it showcases many of my other percussion patches - toms, several cymbals, cowbell, even a passable steel drum. ANd since then I have come up with a nearly acceptable gong (intro and final flourish in "Elephino"), and a pretty good xylophone (debuts at about 3:10 in "Elephino", with an earlier version in the background sequence to "Error on an eString" - still having some trouble with the "ring modulator", doesn't behave like an analog ring modulator at all :x )

Moderator: paulnasca

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