What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

Another Idea to make Mulab better

Official support for: mutools.com

Moderators: mutools, muzycian

User avatar
KVRist
 
474 posts since 4 Oct, 2012, from Utah
    

Postby dakkra; Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:52 am Another Idea to make Mulab better

So while browsing youtube I came upon Bitwig which is an ableton "clone" as it would seem. One nice feature from one of their video's it that when a vst stops working the studio is "un-affected". See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwekCqQT-t8

Seeing as how when I use beta vst(they crash every 5 seconds) I was wondering if this would be possible to Implement into Mulab.

Thanks for hearing me out,

Dakkra
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:23 am

It's not planned. Solution is rather simple: Don't use crashy plug-ins. Ok, it might happen when you try something out new, but then chance is low that you do this while in an important session, right? And even if so, then just hit save some extra times. And don't forget that MuLab already has an auto-save function (default every 15 minutes, but it's a preference) and also tries to catch crashes and then it will S.O.S. save all open sessions as Crashed.MuSession.

Conclusion: Whatever your musical tool: Select stable plugs!
User avatar
KVRist
 
474 posts since 4 Oct, 2012, from Utah
    

Postby dakkra; Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:28 am

You do give a good point.
User avatar
KVRian
 
615 posts since 28 Mar, 2008, from U.K.

Postby sl23; Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:19 am

That looks interesting! I think it'll be hard beating MuLab though ;-)
Live for an ideal and leave no place in the mind for anything else.

Portugal property for sale
User avatar
KVRAF
 
9506 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:50 am

Aha, that's plugin firewalling. A very great thing! Reaper can do this by hosting a plugin in its own process. Very effective solution. Hope MuLAB gets it one day.
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:13 pm

So you like using crashy VST plugs? :o
User avatar
KVRist
 
474 posts since 4 Oct, 2012, from Utah
    

Postby dakkra; Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:41 pm

mutools wrote:So you like using crashy VST plugs? :o


Or for example an update comes to the VST. The update provides many new features but comes along with more bugs. Until they make a bug fix (if ever) It would be nice to have this feature.
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:42 pm

I don't get it. If the plug crashes, then why would you want to use it in a real song? Well "use it" is not the proper expression then, right? And if it's about beta testing, well then the crashes don't hurt too much, right?
User avatar
KVRian
 
1134 posts since 24 Dec, 2004, from Adelaide, South Australia

Postby audiobot202; Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:50 pm

mutools wrote:I don't get it. If the plug crashes, then why would you want to use it in a real song? Well "use it" is not the proper expression then, right? And if it's about beta testing, well then the crashes don't hurt too much, right?


Well, it's not always that simple Jo. As said earlier, what if it has been a stable plugin and then an update makes it unstable? If you use it all over your projects you're going to have to go back and replace all instances of it, which is time consuming and annoying. What if it is a stable plugin, but then out of the blue one day it crashes the host in a large project? What if the instability is so rare that you don't notice it until one critical session?
Then there are those plugins that work well in all hosts but one for no apparent reason. Unless Mulab is your only host, why would you uninstall it? You'd probably just stop using it in Mulab or just stop using Mulab altogether. Neither option is really much of a win is it?

Not always that simple you see...
Tracktion is BAAAAAACK !!!
KVRAF
 
3879 posts since 28 Apr, 2006

Postby memyselfandus; Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:59 pm

not sure if there is such a thing as a non crashy plugin. from my experience.. it depends. unless someone has a list of plugins that never crash.
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:15 pm

audiobot202 wrote:
mutools wrote:I don't get it. If the plug crashes, then why would you want to use it in a real song? Well "use it" is not the proper expression then, right? And if it's about beta testing, well then the crashes don't hurt too much, right?


Well, it's not always that simple Jo. As said earlier, what if it has been a stable plugin and then an update makes it unstable? If you use it all over your projects you're going to have to go back and replace all instances of it, which is time consuming and annoying.


But in that case the sandbox feature won't get you making music either, does it? In such case i would return to the previous version of that plug.

What if it is a stable plugin, but then out of the blue one day it crashes the host in a large project? What if the instability is so rare that you don't notice it until one critical session?


Agreed, in such situation the sandbox will save a little bit extra of your latest edits. In case of MuLab, the auto-save feature will have saved most of your work. Of course there always is that exceptional Murphy chance that you just did a genious edit/take just after the auto save and just then some plug regarded as stable comes to crash out of the blue. It happens, i agree. But i think we're talking about exceptions. And so i doubt wether it's worth the dev investment. I was already amazed when i read those (over?)enthusiast reactions elsewhere on Kvr and the web on this BW/reaper feature. I thought: Woow, that's a musical feature!! (bit of irony). Anyway i'll oblige myself to stay open-minded about it eventhough it's a big job to implement it, i think, and thus it would seriously postpone other MU wishes...

Then there are those plugins that work well in all hosts but one for no apparent reason. Unless Mulab is your only host, why would you uninstall it? You'd probably just stop using it in Mulab


Indeed, that's logical.

or just stop using Mulab altogether.


Everyone is free, but i don't see the logic of it. Even a sandbox feature won't change that, right? (i mean: even a sandbox does not make the plug work)

Not always that simple you see...


That's true for sure. Thanks for your interesting post. Eventhough i reply critically i agree with the bottomline of it.
User avatar
KVRian
 
615 posts since 28 Mar, 2008, from U.K.

Postby sl23; Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:01 pm

I think this is one of those things that work in theory but the practicality of it is a different thing altogether. The only situation this would actually 'save' you is in a live setup. Other than that there's not much hardship restarting MuLab is there? I agree about the 'losing a decent take just after AutoSave' but can't see it's worth it. Just my humble opinion :-)
Live for an ideal and leave no place in the mind for anything else.

Portugal property for sale
KVRian
 
952 posts since 26 Jul, 2004

Postby Trancit; Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:29 pm

And please don't forget one thing:

Plugin firewalling is a kind of bridge used between the host and the plugin!!!

And like all bridges, the bridge itself can cause trouble with certain plugins...
i.e. Reapers firewall bridge is incompatible to a number of plugins I tried, which means:

The plugin natively hosted in reaper runs flawless unless I use it bridged... then it starts crashing...

There is no failsafe way and Jo's respond is the only correct one:

If you want to work without crashing plugins - don't use plugins, which crashes...simple as that... involving more code means more crashes and not less!!!

Just my experiences...
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:37 pm

sl23 wrote:The only situation this would actually 'save' you is in a live setup.


You do point to an important aspect, the live aspect, didn't think of that either. (yeah i knew audiobot202 was right that it's not always as simple as it might seem)

But then, just thinking loud, the live performance will also be ruined anyway because a part of the music will cease. But ok it will be less damage than a full crash, no doubt there.

Something to keep in mind.

I still wonder whether that live aspect was the reason why so many people go wild enthusiast about that feature...

Just got a funny picture in my head of a musician who's using a daw with the sandbox feature and then some plug crashes and he's sooo haaapppyyyy :hyper: because the plugged crashed and now his sandbox is working. To me it still sounds like a world upside down.

Anyway, will sleep over it.
KVRAF
 
5527 posts since 24 Jun, 2008, from Europe
    

Postby mutools; Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:41 pm

Trancit wrote:Plugin firewalling is a kind of bridge used between the host and the plugin!!! And like all bridges, the bridge itself can cause trouble with certain plugins...
i.e. Reapers firewall bridge is incompatible to a number of plugins I tried


Yeah that's also something i was wondering about: does such firewall/sandboxing not have disadvantages of itself? Doesn't it affect performance or latency? I admit that i don't have any experience with it yet.
Next

Moderators: mutools, muzycian

Return to MUTOOLS