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by elxsound; Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:13 pm
The problem is that I don't think Live (originally) was intended to be a DAW replacement, but with each new release, they've added more features that make it possible to be a replacement, but as you mentioned... some workflow sacrifices exist in the program.
Live's strengths lie in the creating and performing processes. That is what it was intended to be and nothing (IMO) beats that workflow (although BitWig might be knocking on their door).
If you were brand new to this, and you like Live as much as you said you did, then I'd have no problem saying stick with Live, since you wouldn't be faced with comparing workflows you enjoyed better in Logic.
So again... to echo everyone else... BOTH.
by djanthonyw; Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:43 pm
From my experience demoing Live quite a few times, the main things I like:
- Freezing tracks is very elegant because you can treat the frozen clips like audio, move them around, and slice them ect.. then unfreeze them if need be and any changes you make to the frozen audio is in place with the midi too.
A good alternative to this with Logic would be the bounce in place feature.
- Time stretching / Slicing
This is generally good, and more reliable than Logic, but the quality of both Live and Logic's time stretching is very program dependent. In some cases, Logic is better than Live and vise versa quality wise.
- Browser and previewing audio samples.
The things I don't like:
- Third party plugins are even less organized than Logic. Everything, both instruments and effects are just jumbled all together.
- Mixing is horrible because there is no way to see an overview of all plugins on all channels at once. You can only view plugins that are on one channel at a time.
- Session view. I can understand why some people would like it, but I don't really see any benefit to it from a production point of a view. I can see the real benefits of it when "performing live", but Traktor can do the same thing for me when I'm DJing. When dealing with session view while producing, I really don't see any benefit to it over laying out ideas in Logic or any traditional sequencer and looping the arrange view while taking ideas in an out of the loop zone.
- To play a virtual instrument loaded on a channel, you can't just click on that specific channel as you would in Logic. You have to make sure that you press the tiny record enable button. Logic does this for you automatically when selecting tracks.
- Copy protection. C/R sucks, and is not a user friendly option, as many users have realized when dealing with companies that end up disappearing. I avoid this method of copy protection whenever possible.
People complain about the audio quality of Live, saying "oh, that's because time stretching is enabled, disable it". This is true, your audio quality in Live will be fine and the same as any other sequencer when doing this, but now it's also just like working in any other sequencer.
I like knowing that I can, and do, do all of my production in one program. Logic allows me to do this. I have no need for two. I use Traktor for DJing because it offers me the ability to DJ traditionally, on-the-fly, without planning anything out in advance if I choose not to. Ableton Live is not made for this. Sure, you get to "perform" live, but it's not designed to handle actual DJing with improvisation, and a professional music collection database that can be searched through quickly and accurately.
by BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 am
I think we can conclude that Live's workflow for audio is not as refined (or at least different) as some more traditional DAWs. I thought (hoped?) that maybe I just had to look to it from a different angle, but I guess it's correct that Live was not born to be a full featured DAW, it just became one as it progressed. On the other hand, that's just something one has to deal with then. There's no product in the world that is everything to everyone.
I'm surprised to see that quite a few people suggest to use both Live and Logic. I expected at least one reaction like that, but never had I thought that it's such a common way of working. I will consider it, but not before I really have given myself (and Live) the chance to adapt to Live and establish a workflow that works for me - within Live.
I will keep Logic, but I won't Rewire just yet, although I totally see why most of you suggest to do so.
I'm also happy to see that you all can relate to the issues I faced when demoing Live, but still find Live to be worthwhile and choose it over (or with) other DAWs.
djanthonyw, if you don't care for the session view, I would have to agree with you, then there's no (or little) compelling reason to switch. I personally like it a lot, and I really can't get that same functionality with looping in another DAW's arrangement view. Well, not as intuitive anyway. The automatic arming of channels upon selection I will miss from Logic as well. Although I found some scripts that may overcome this. Maybe M4L will provide a solution otherwise. And… the browser is a mess too, I agree….
But despite its silly hairdo, funny walk and hairpulling attitude when I want to get something serious done, Live inspires me more than Logic to be creative and have fun. It's a feature that is not to be underestimated for an otherwise techno/logy minded gearhead as myself.
Now… just see if I have the funds ready. And thanks again for helping me clear my head.
by DHR53; Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:50 am
(And yes, a Mac user for 20 years, although I own FL, Orion and Reaper (PC) as well as MuLab.
by BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:04 pm
I think Logic is just a very mature, very well featured, and since Apple took over, a relatively easy to grasp DAW. I'm already on a Mac since 10 years now (and when I started you could still use Logic on Windows), so the Mac only thing never was an issue for me.
I would not hesitate to recommend Logic to anyone who prefers a strictly linear workflow, or a mixing focussed workflow. The only real drawback I can think of are Audio Units - and more precisely, Apple's implementation and developers struggles with it.
Yup, I like Logic, and I wouldn't change it for a similar DAW (that's also in large because I know it so well), but it doesn't let me work the way Live does. All of that has nothing to do with Logic's qualities as a DAW.
by BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:29 pm
For some reason I found Live's instruments to be better, not necessarily because of better audio quality, but at least the GUI has some contrast. I know many people have them but never use them. Only issue is that (this applies to Logic as well) they are somewhat redundant as I find better alternatives amongst my AU's. For Live, the ones that really add value to me are Collision and Sampler. Operator is nice (Analog as well albeit slightly run off the mill) but I wouldn't go Suite for those. The tipping point for Suite (to me) was the inclusion of M4L with V9 - along with Collision and Sampler. (and I am a firm believer that every DAW should come with an electric piano, period! )
Really all Apple has to do is revamp the GUIs of Logic's plugins.
by DHR53; Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:52 pm
Of course I am not a "pro", so this is my humble opinion... I'm a lifelong lover of synthesizer music who continues to bang out ideas in the DAW age.
by 5Lives; Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:01 am
So, really depends on how you work and what kind of music you write IMO. For songwriting actually, Reason's Blocks approach is fantastic - too bad you have to use Reason though
by TheoM; Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:22 pm
Also, if for some reason logic's flex time doesn't sound right for a particular stretch, i have the full range of elastique pro in live to choose from as an alternative.
the way i see it with those two, honestly, it's not a either/or but rather a best of both worlds. They just work great together they really do.
There are certain things about live's workflow, and the pdc issue, despite the wonderful program it is, that will drive you up the wall and you will go back to logic, you'll see. that's why i say, just trust me on this, rewire live into logic, it works, and works well.
by BDeep; Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:57 pm
5Lives wrote:So, really depends on how you work and what kind of music you write IMO. For songwriting actually, Reason's Blocks approach is fantastic - too bad you have to use Reason though
Snipped your post to save some space, but I totally agree with you. I think if I were to write songs (by that I mean with vocals and such, a band), then another DAW would probably make more sense. Since I mostly do loop based stuff, it really works well (more precise, that's what I'm expecting out of it). Linear DAWs work IMHO better when you already have a concept of the direction you're track is evolving in (in time).
@Theo, yup, you share the same thoughts as others, which surprises me actually, as I always figured many would use Live standalone. Apparently, also many use it in conjunction with other hosts. I can see why, I stumbled upon some of the reasons even in my demo time. Still, for what I do, I hope to get a lot of mileage out of it. Will give Rewire a go at some point probably.
I like to thank everyone again for their insights. They really helped me to confirm that I wanted to make this step!
by zerocrossing; Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 pm
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
by itsinvader; Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:45 am
yeah it had it's limitations and was a bit of a pain to mix in but those were all things I could deal with
but then the problems started
my projects kept getting bigger and bigger, Live 8 was still 32-bit and would crash or corrupt my files while saving pretty often
freezing would not help as it only takes the load off your CPU, and flattening was a pain in the ass as there is no BIP in Live like there is in Logic 9
but then Live 8.4 beta was introduced late last year, no more ram problems for me!
but then the overloading started to happen, Live starts having spikes at 40% and hitting 80% to over %100 before my CPU even hit 50%!! I can have Live completely going to shit and my CPU is 60% idle, what bullshit is this?
well it ends up that Ableton does not intend to do anything about this in Live 9 because they are still more interested on the live performance aspect
Live is optimized for low latency live performances, it is called Live after all.. but this means that it will never compete with other professional production DAWs, which can usually hold up to double the amount of plug-ins that Live 8 or 9 can
talking about Live 9, the upgrade is a joke, I've been beta testing and there is virtually no improvement whatsoever
I don't want to get any more into the whole Live 9 thing, but lets just say that I was actually thinking of upgrading to Suite when it came out but it's announcement made me really skeptical about it
I've been beta testing Live 9 and all I can say is that I am DAW hunting atm, been strongly considering Cubase 7 or even going back to Logic 9, maybe I'll wait until Logic 10 is announced to make a better decision