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Torn: Live or Logic?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

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elxsound
KVRAF
 
3303 posts since 18 Aug, 2007, from NYC

Postby elxsound; Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:13 pm

Both...

The problem is that I don't think Live (originally) was intended to be a DAW replacement, but with each new release, they've added more features that make it possible to be a replacement, but as you mentioned... some workflow sacrifices exist in the program.

Live's strengths lie in the creating and performing processes. That is what it was intended to be and nothing (IMO) beats that workflow (although BitWig might be knocking on their door).

If you were brand new to this, and you like Live as much as you said you did, then I'd have no problem saying stick with Live, since you wouldn't be faced with comparing workflows you enjoyed better in Logic.

So again... to echo everyone else... BOTH.
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djanthonyw
KVRAF
 
6702 posts since 20 Jul, 2004, from Boston

Postby djanthonyw; Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:43 pm

I don't agree with others and their advice to use Live or any other sequencer along with a whole other sequencer. I think it's completely pointless because if Live does something better than sequencer X, dealing with the workflow between both of them negates any of the positives and just makes things more complicated.


From my experience demoing Live quite a few times, the main things I like:

- Freezing tracks is very elegant because you can treat the frozen clips like audio, move them around, and slice them ect.. then unfreeze them if need be and any changes you make to the frozen audio is in place with the midi too.

A good alternative to this with Logic would be the bounce in place feature.

- Time stretching / Slicing

This is generally good, and more reliable than Logic, but the quality of both Live and Logic's time stretching is very program dependent. In some cases, Logic is better than Live and vise versa quality wise.

- Browser and previewing audio samples.


The things I don't like:

- Third party plugins are even less organized than Logic. Everything, both instruments and effects are just jumbled all together.

- Mixing is horrible because there is no way to see an overview of all plugins on all channels at once. You can only view plugins that are on one channel at a time.

- Session view. I can understand why some people would like it, but I don't really see any benefit to it from a production point of a view. I can see the real benefits of it when "performing live", but Traktor can do the same thing for me when I'm DJing. When dealing with session view while producing, I really don't see any benefit to it over laying out ideas in Logic or any traditional sequencer and looping the arrange view while taking ideas in an out of the loop zone.

- To play a virtual instrument loaded on a channel, you can't just click on that specific channel as you would in Logic. You have to make sure that you press the tiny record enable button. Logic does this for you automatically when selecting tracks.

- Copy protection. C/R sucks, and is not a user friendly option, as many users have realized when dealing with companies that end up disappearing. I avoid this method of copy protection whenever possible.


People complain about the audio quality of Live, saying "oh, that's because time stretching is enabled, disable it". This is true, your audio quality in Live will be fine and the same as any other sequencer when doing this, but now it's also just like working in any other sequencer.

I like knowing that I can, and do, do all of my production in one program. Logic allows me to do this. I have no need for two. I use Traktor for DJing because it offers me the ability to DJ traditionally, on-the-fly, without planning anything out in advance if I choose not to. Ableton Live is not made for this. Sure, you get to "perform" live, but it's not designed to handle actual DJing with improvisation, and a professional music collection database that can be searched through quickly and accurately.
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BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 am

Thanks again for the useful and eleborate replies, I really appreciate it. Sorry for the delay in my response though, I only briefly had some time in between other business.

I think we can conclude that Live's workflow for audio is not as refined (or at least different) as some more traditional DAWs. I thought (hoped?) that maybe I just had to look to it from a different angle, but I guess it's correct that Live was not born to be a full featured DAW, it just became one as it progressed. On the other hand, that's just something one has to deal with then. There's no product in the world that is everything to everyone.
I'm surprised to see that quite a few people suggest to use both Live and Logic. I expected at least one reaction like that, but never had I thought that it's such a common way of working. I will consider it, but not before I really have given myself (and Live) the chance to adapt to Live and establish a workflow that works for me - within Live.
I will keep Logic, but I won't Rewire just yet, although I totally see why most of you suggest to do so.

I'm also happy to see that you all can relate to the issues I faced when demoing Live, but still find Live to be worthwhile and choose it over (or with) other DAWs.

djanthonyw, if you don't care for the session view, I would have to agree with you, then there's no (or little) compelling reason to switch. I personally like it a lot, and I really can't get that same functionality with looping in another DAW's arrangement view. Well, not as intuitive anyway. The automatic arming of channels upon selection I will miss from Logic as well. Although I found some scripts that may overcome this. Maybe M4L will provide a solution otherwise. And… the browser is a mess too, I agree….

But despite its silly hairdo, funny walk and hairpulling attitude when I want to get something serious done, Live inspires me more than Logic to be creative and have fun. It's a feature that is not to be underestimated for an otherwise techno/logy minded gearhead as myself.

Now… just see if I have the funds ready. And thanks again for helping me clear my head.
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DHR53
KVRAF
 
2794 posts since 21 Oct, 2002, from "somewhere between digital and analog"

Postby DHR53; Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:50 am

Logic has to be the bargain of the DAW world right now... especially for what you get. Great FX plugins, quality instruments, a ton of downloadable content in the form of loops and FX etc. And does pretty much whatever you would need to do... albeit on a Mac. That's the only catch if there is one. Almost worth buying a mac mini and going for it. It seems to scare some people for some reason but once you set up a template, screen sets and cmnd. keys it's like auto pilot. Are there some bugs... Yes as in most DAWs with that much going on, but to know Logic is to love it.

My .02 :)

(And yes, a Mac user for 20 years, although I own FL, Orion and Reaper (PC) as well as MuLab.
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BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:04 pm

I fully agree with you, if Live had the same price as Logic, I wouldn't even bother to ask this question.
I think Logic is just a very mature, very well featured, and since Apple took over, a relatively easy to grasp DAW. I'm already on a Mac since 10 years now (and when I started you could still use Logic on Windows), so the Mac only thing never was an issue for me.
I would not hesitate to recommend Logic to anyone who prefers a strictly linear workflow, or a mixing focussed workflow. The only real drawback I can think of are Audio Units - and more precisely, Apple's implementation and developers struggles with it.
Yup, I like Logic, and I wouldn't change it for a similar DAW (that's also in large because I know it so well), but it doesn't let me work the way Live does. All of that has nothing to do with Logic's qualities as a DAW.
BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:29 pm

One more thing on Logic's plugins, I did find that I rarely used them, the effects every once in a while but the instruments just a few times. Mainly though because I couldn't get passed the GUIs. The "simple" ones are okay, especially EFM1. The organ and electric piano are also nice. But ES1/2, Sculpture and Ultrabeat, nice instruments as they are, have committed to each and every GUI blasphemy one could think of.
For some reason I found Live's instruments to be better, not necessarily because of better audio quality, but at least the GUI has some contrast. I know many people have them but never use them. Only issue is that (this applies to Logic as well) they are somewhat redundant as I find better alternatives amongst my AU's. For Live, the ones that really add value to me are Collision and Sampler. Operator is nice (Analog as well albeit slightly run off the mill) but I wouldn't go Suite for those. The tipping point for Suite (to me) was the inclusion of M4L with V9 - along with Collision and Sampler. (and I am a firm believer that every DAW should come with an electric piano, period! :D)

Really all Apple has to do is revamp the GUIs of Logic's plugins.
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DHR53
KVRAF
 
2794 posts since 21 Oct, 2002, from "somewhere between digital and analog"

Postby DHR53; Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:52 pm

Logic instruments are excellent, but the UIs although beautiful are complicated to sort out initially... I think that's why most people ignore them and use their favorite plugins instead. But that in no way diminishes their capabilities. If you take the time to learn the routing and layout, their excellent. EXS24 is THE cpu friendly option for filling in synth sounds in any mix and the content included with it is huge. I've always compared third party FX plugins to the stuff included in Logic, and more times than not I end up thinking I have it covered. I've purchased very few compressors and EQs beyond what is in Logic.

Of course I am not a "pro", so this is my humble opinion... I'm a lifelong lover of synthesizer music who continues to bang out ideas in the DAW age.

Onward...

:harp:
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BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:18 am

Just got Suite 8 + 9! :harp: :violin: :band: :band: :band: :band2: :band2: :band2:
5Lives
KVRist
 
358 posts since 10 Nov, 2005, from Los Angeles

Postby 5Lives; Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:01 am

I've tried Live multiple times, but I think it really depends on the type of music you do. Live's Session View is great for putting together ideas, but it basically boxes you into very strict loops. So, maybe great for EDM, but not for say classical music. Even for songwriting in the traditional sense (pop, rock, anything vocal based), I didn't find Live particularly convenient because things like the vocal lead line and melodies can't be constrained to the loop boundaries. You could use the arrangement view in Live, but it isn't nearly as mature as a DAW that is focused on that.

So, really depends on how you work and what kind of music you write IMO. For songwriting actually, Reason's Blocks approach is fantastic - too bad you have to use Reason though :)
TheoM
KVRAF
 
19204 posts since 4 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne Australia

Postby TheoM; Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:22 pm

My 2c. i own and use live as a rewire slave to logic cause it's faster than logic by a margin of great magnitude on previewing audio loops.

Also, if for some reason logic's flex time doesn't sound right for a particular stretch, i have the full range of elastique pro in live to choose from as an alternative.

the way i see it with those two, honestly, it's not a either/or but rather a best of both worlds. They just work great together they really do.

There are certain things about live's workflow, and the pdc issue, despite the wonderful program it is, that will drive you up the wall and you will go back to logic, you'll see. that's why i say, just trust me on this, rewire live into logic, it works, and works well.
"Just call me shitload, cause I own a shitload of plugins!"
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thecontrolcentre
KVRAF
 
16477 posts since 27 Jul, 2005, from the wilds of wanny

Postby thecontrolcentre; Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:32 pm

BDeep wrote:Just got Suite 8 + 9! :harp: :violin: :band: :band: :band: :band2: :band2: :band2:
:band: :band: :band: :band2: :band2: :band2::harp: :violin:
BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:49 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
BDeep wrote:Just got Suite 8 + 9! :harp: :violin: :band: :band: :band: :band2: :band2: :band2:
:band: :band: :band: :band2: :band2: :band2::harp: :violin:

You're obviously a more experienced Live user :hihi:
BDeep
KVRAF
 
1720 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:57 pm

5Lives wrote:So, really depends on how you work and what kind of music you write IMO. For songwriting actually, Reason's Blocks approach is fantastic - too bad you have to use Reason though :)

Snipped your post to save some space, but I totally agree with you. I think if I were to write songs (by that I mean with vocals and such, a band), then another DAW would probably make more sense. Since I mostly do loop based stuff, it really works well (more precise, that's what I'm expecting out of it). Linear DAWs work IMHO better when you already have a concept of the direction you're track is evolving in (in time).

@Theo, yup, you share the same thoughts as others, which surprises me actually, as I always figured many would use Live standalone. Apparently, also many use it in conjunction with other hosts. I can see why, I stumbled upon some of the reasons even in my demo time. Still, for what I do, I hope to get a lot of mileage out of it. Will give Rewire a go at some point probably.

I like to thank everyone again for their insights. They really helped me to confirm that I wanted to make this step!
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7176 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 pm

I look at Live as if it's a totally different type of application than a Logic (not that I'm a logic user, I use Metro and Digital Performer as well as Live) and to me Live is a "play ground" where I go to just fool around and have unbridled fun. When I'm getting down to business (which isn't very often) I'm in a different style of DAW. Maybe Live will one day become something that lives in both "worlds" but for now I'll continue to use it as a looper/looping playground-sketchpad.
Zerocrossing Media
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4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
itsinvader
KVRer
 
19 posts since 12 Aug, 2012, from HELL

Postby itsinvader; Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:45 am

I had the same first reaction when I went form Logic 9 to Live 8 a couple of years ago, I just loved it and thought I'd never want to use another DAW again

yeah it had it's limitations and was a bit of a pain to mix in but those were all things I could deal with

but then the problems started

my projects kept getting bigger and bigger, Live 8 was still 32-bit and would crash or corrupt my files while saving pretty often

freezing would not help as it only takes the load off your CPU, and flattening was a pain in the ass as there is no BIP in Live like there is in Logic 9

but then Live 8.4 beta was introduced late last year, no more ram problems for me!

but then the overloading started to happen, Live starts having spikes at 40% and hitting 80% to over %100 before my CPU even hit 50%!! I can have Live completely going to shit and my CPU is 60% idle, what bullshit is this?

well it ends up that Ableton does not intend to do anything about this in Live 9 because they are still more interested on the live performance aspect

Live is optimized for low latency live performances, it is called Live after all.. but this means that it will never compete with other professional production DAWs, which can usually hold up to double the amount of plug-ins that Live 8 or 9 can

talking about Live 9, the upgrade is a joke, I've been beta testing and there is virtually no improvement whatsoever

I don't want to get any more into the whole Live 9 thing, but lets just say that I was actually thinking of upgrading to Suite when it came out but it's announcement made me really skeptical about it

I've been beta testing Live 9 and all I can say is that I am DAW hunting atm, been strongly considering Cubase 7 or even going back to Logic 9, maybe I'll wait until Logic 10 is announced to make a better decision
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