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Phasey sound.[solved]

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Moderators: BGC, zircon

metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:54 pm

iain_morland wrote:Hmm... there isn't any actual phase cancellation (as Andrew points out) but I wonder if the timing variations in the double-tracked round robins don't suit what you're trying to achieve.

Out of curiosity, is this a bit closer to the stereo image for which you're aiming?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4833381/Sound.mp3



hi Iain yes it is..with dry guitars i haven't problems,this phasey sound appears whith guitar amps and with shreddage 2 only.
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:05 pm

metalheart wrote:
iain_morland wrote:Hmm... there isn't any actual phase cancellation (as Andrew points out) but I wonder if the timing variations in the double-tracked round robins don't suit what you're trying to achieve.

Out of curiosity, is this a bit closer to the stereo image for which you're aiming?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4833381/Sound.mp3



hi Iain yes it is..with dry guitars i haven't problems,this phasey sound appears whith guitar amps and with shreddage 2 only.

Ok, interesting!

It sounds like what you want is something a bit tighter than Shreddage 2's double-tracked RRs. It seems that the amp effect is magnifying the difference in attacks between the guitars, which makes the timing feel loose.

But the good news is that what you want is still doable with Shreddage 2 :)

Here's how I made that clip:

- I took only the left channel of your DI track

- Pasted it into both channels of a new stereo track

- Sent the track through a doubler plugin (I used Waves Doubler, but I guess there are other tools that can get the same result) with these settings:

- Original signal panned hard left

- Doubled signal panned hard right with a 31.1ms delay, detuned by +6 cents, with a modulation depth of 1 cent at 1.2Hz rate.

- Adjusted the levels of the Original and Doubled signal so they sounded balanced.

- Sent this through a stereo guitar amp.

Hope this helps!

If you have any problems reproducing this let me know, and I will run your whole DI track through the Doubler and upload it for you. :)
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:29 pm

aaaargh...thanks Iain..no i like the overall fat sound of shreddage 2,simply i'm sure i'm doing something wrong and i would like to understand what is it.
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:57 am

metalheart wrote:aaaargh...thanks Iain..no i like the overall fat sound of shreddage 2,simply i'm sure i'm doing something wrong and i would like to understand what is it.

No worries - it may be that you're not doing it "wrong" but just picking the wrong approach for the sound you need in this particular context. :)

Out of interest, would you say this version also sounds "phasey"?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4833381/Sound_2.mp3
(This one is your original DT via the same amp sim as my earlier clip, but without the doubler.)
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:47 pm

hi Iain,no the version you've linked doesn't sound phasey,but even my dry version sounds ok,so I wonder if there isn't something wrong with amp sim or with LeCab 2 (a cabinet impulse loader).The strange thing is,as I said before,that with the same setup (amp sim,impulses,effects) and Prominy V Metal this phasey sound disappears,or atleast it sounds less aloud (i have pinpoint,however,that after a sound comparison between the two libraries,personally,Shreddage II wins the day trouncing V Metal without any problem).
I'm not a sound expert but if I'm not wrong phase cancellation occurs when two identical signals are combined causing the loss of some frequencies or something like that :? Infact during my whole song this phasey sound goes stronger when 2 guitars play the same riff etc...
Have you tried your version with an amp sim??
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:45 am

metalheart wrote:hi Iain,no the version you've linked doesn't sound phasey,but even my dry version sounds ok,so I wonder if there isn't something wrong with amp sim or with LeCab 2 (a cabinet impulse loader).The strange thing is,as I said before,that with the same setup (amp sim,impulses,effects) and Prominy V Metal this phasey sound disappears,or atleast it sounds less aloud (i have pinpoint,however,that after a sound comparison between the two libraries,personally,Shreddage II wins the day trouncing V Metal without any problem).
I'm not a sound expert but if I'm not wrong phase cancellation occurs when two identical signals are combined causing the loss of some frequencies or something like that :? Infact during my whole song this phasey sound goes stronger when 2 guitars play the same riff etc...
Have you tried your version with an amp sim??

Thanks for the reply.
Hmm, from what you say, it seems that the amp sim plugins you're using disagree with Shreddage 2, for some reason.

Both the clips I posted are processed through an amp sim (Waves GTR)!

AFAIK, phase cancellation happens when content in the L and R channels is phase-inverted but otherwise identical. You could try nudging one channel of your processed guitar track forward in time by a few milliseconds (e.g. using a per-channel delay in your amp sim plugin, if available). If phase cancellation is the cause of the problem, the sound should noticeably fill out when the channels are moved slightly out of sync in this way.

Hope this helps.
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:36 pm

Hi Iain.
Unfortunately my amp sim doesn't have it,so i wonder if a simply delay on one of the two guitar channels would give same results.For now I've shifted forward midi notes in common within the tracks and it seems to work even if this phasey sound is still present. :x :x
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:46 pm

metalheart wrote:Hi Iain.
Unfortunately my amp sim doesn't have it,so i wonder if a simply delay on one of the two guitar channels would give same results.For now I've shifted forward midi notes in common within the tracks and it seems to work even if this phasey sound is still present. :x :x

Ok, try putting the MIDI notes back in their original positions, then inserting Voxengo Sound Delay (which is free) after the amp sim output. Then choose 'dual mono' from the 'routing' dropdown menu in Sound Delay. Tweak the delay for just one of the channels and see if the phasiness changes.
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:09 pm

Hi Iain,sorry for the delay,i've had little connection problems
after the amp sim i use an impulse loader.so is this the right chain?

amp sim
voxengo sound delay
LeCab 2

thanks again for your patience!
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:59 am

No worries.

Try that chain first, tweak the delay for one of the channels (remember to switch to 'dual mono' mode, or both channels will be delayed) and see what happens to the sound.

If that makes no difference then you could try moving the delay to after LeCab instead.

Another possibility is that the phase of the impulse response is "clashing" with the stereo image of the double-tracked Shreddage guitars. You could try opening the impulse response in a wave editor, nudging one of the channels, then saving it to a new file and testing the results.
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:09 am

Hi Iain.no more phasey sound!!! :D
I've used Voxengo Sound delay but instead of opening a wave editor I've changed some IR from LeCab 2 panel..with a good result.
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iain_morland
KVRian
 
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2005, from UK

Postby iain_morland; Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:17 am

Excellent! Glad to hear it!

Would you be happy to add "[solved]" to the thread title? :tu:
Sound design, audio editing, and instrument programming for Kontakt and MachFive/UVI Workstation
http://www.iainmorland.net
metalheart
KVRist
 
236 posts since 2 Jun, 2012

Postby metalheart; Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:42 am

sure! thanks again for your kind help Iain :)
audiosupernova
KVRist
 
147 posts since 3 Oct, 2012, from VA, USA

Postby audiosupernova; Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:29 pm

Even though this is already solved, another really easy way to fix the phase between multiple instances of Shreddage 2, is to shift all your notes, say up one step, then tune Shreddage 2 down, one step. Leave the other instance the same. This way, if you have two instances playing the same parts, they're actually sampling 2 different notes "technically", so the samples are completely different, eliminating the phasey sound you get when you have the same sample played by two different VSTs. It only takes 5 seconds, and still sounds great.
xsigma
KVRer
 
1 post since 28 Jan, 2013, from RU

Postby xsigma; Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:10 pm

I simply set the option TuneVari to 0 on all Shreddage instruments (2 DT's), and the phasey effect disappeared.
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