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Alchemy 2

Official support for: camelaudio.com

Moderators: ZenPunkHippy, ugo, biomechanoid, Ben [Camel Audio]

KVRian
 
676 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Postby Liero; Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:30 am

ZenPunkHippy wrote:
Liero wrote:ii) nothing written into the registry

We don't like the registry either. It is used to store the location of the DLL, that is all. No way around that, unfortunately.

iii) ability to move the alchemy folder to another location and having everything work afterwards. This does not mean that the one folder can't have subfolders for presets and other stuff that move along with it

You can do this if you follow the correct procedure. It is not possible for us to know where you moved the folder, so some mechanism is required so that the user can tell Alchemy where the folder was moved to. This is done by running setup again, so that the config file is properly updated and the shortcuts set.

A lot of plugins can manage this ...

Sure, but a lot of plugins are just a single DLL and don't have multi-GB sample + preset folders.


I'm not a programmer myself but is there really "no way around that"? I have omnisphere, it does not save the location of the .DLL anywhere and you can freely move it anywhere you want and point your DAW to that folder and it will work. You can even manually move the entire sound library and the plugin will just ask you where you put it the next time you load. Again, not a programming guru, but shouldn't it be fairly easy to have a program look for the location it itself resides in?

Thanks for the reply. It's good to hear that there's been progress on the installer front etc., remember to include those in changelogs, I look for those carefully :)
KVRer
 
13 posts since 11 Mar, 2012, from muskegon mi

Postby Jamie61571; Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:45 am

Hi Ben how many people do you have working there for the company?thank you
hello my name is jamie i'm 40 years old and i live in the state of michigan my favorite musical instruments is the keyboards synthesizers ect you name it i have other intrests as well
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KVRAF
 
10136 posts since 18 Jun, 2008, from Melbourne, Australia
 

Postby ZenPunkHippy; Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:54 am

Jamie,

See company page on our site:

http://www.camelaudio.com/company.php

Peace,
Andy.
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KVRAF
 
7197 posts since 3 Feb, 2003, from Finland, Espoo

Postby bmanic; Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:24 am

Ben [Camel Audio] wrote:You're probably already aware of this, but for the benefit of others reading this, Kyma is excellent but its not magic and it requires very careful editing to get the best results. I suspect that many days, if not weeks, of work have gone into making each of these sound examples sound as good as possible.


This is not what I've heard. There are some here on KvR that have a Kyma system. Would be nice to get this verified.

As far as I know, it's actually pretty easy and straight forward to get very satisfying morphs with a Kyma system. The whole point of it being that it's relatively easy when using any of the supplied templates/presets.

If it would be excruciatingly difficult then we'd have quite a lot of audio and video examples of horrible morphs.. I've found none so far. They are all pretty impressive compared to anything else. Sure, some sound worse than others but when compared to any other product they all sound way smoother.

.. which is something I'd like to mention. It's not just the "accuracy" of the morph in the Kyma or the "in between" combo.. it's the smoothness of the sound while doing the morphing. It doesn't feel grainy or stepped.. it's very fluid. My guess is that it produces very little unwanted distortions or aliasing or something. The smoothness I hear is kind of comparable to a hard working compressor at no oversampling and at maximum oversampling. For instance, take The Glue compressor. Smack it like crazy so that it is doing tons of compression, moving from zero to 10dB of compression at the fastest release time. Now compare it's sound at no oversampling versus the insane 64x oversampling when running at 96kHz (becomes several mega hertz of resolution). There's a very clear difference which I'd describe as "smoothing" difference. The non-oversampled render sounds slightly "blocky / grainy" whereas the massively oversampled one sounds smooth.

So, I may be ignorant in this matter but as far as I know, Kyma is pretty "magical" when it comes to morphing things. Would be nice to be proven wrong.

Cheers!
bManic
"Remember the iLokalypse June 10 - June 22 2013 - Dominus"
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KVRAF
 
4569 posts since 28 May, 2005, from Netherlands

Postby Nielzie; Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:42 am

Ben [Camel Audio] wrote:It's great to hear everyones thoughts about Alchemy v2 and we welcome feedback from users - especially those who own Alchemy. But I'd just like to say that whilst its true we have been working on Alchemy v2 for a long time, it's also going to take as a long time to complete it - so don't expect a release in the near future. Rest assured we're excited about it and we're all working really hard on it, but we're taking our time to deliver lots of cool features.

In the mean time, there's lots of other cool stuff coming - watch out for the imminent release of Alchemy v1.55, Alchemy Player v1.55, a major Alchemy iOS update (developed by a separate programming team to avoid taking time away from our core products) and some really interesting sound libraries.

Cheers
Ben


Hey Ben (and other camels), thanks for the info! :tu:
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 19 Apr, 2003, from Copenhagen, Denmark
 

Postby olepro; Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:29 pm

If we can have FM integrated in Alchemy 2 like in the upcoming SPIRE synth i would be more than happy :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... M9Io#t=78s
And why not get inSPIREd by some of the other great features in SPIRE, like Unison Octave....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... x_02tEHpK8
___The Jepptunes___
"Accept All the Good"

Sound design for SQ8L and Alchemy
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KVRAF
 
9551 posts since 6 Jan, 2009, from Croatia

Postby EvilDragon; Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:02 pm

ZenPunkHippy wrote:@EvilDragon - that is very similar to how the Alchemy v1.55 installer works.

Peace,
Andy.



Awesome :) :love:
KVRAF
 
8593 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:27 pm

Cool the hear about all the talk on re-synthesis...

For Alchemy 2 I am mainly interested in improved re-synthesis and improvements to additive and spectral usability. For example the tools for painting in spectral mode are kinda poor (sorry peeps). Also, it would be sweet to have some higher level tools for smartly editing partials in musically interesting ways.

Cheers
KVRist
 
39 posts since 16 Jun, 2006

Postby musicbynumbers; Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:05 pm

That sounds great if you can split the sound up in that way this will probably work just as well.

You may also be right about that 4 part harmony in the Kyma demo. I would have to go back and watch the talk he gave.

And I will back you up that some of the really amazing morphs did take a lot of prep work but you can see from the youtube vid of the 4 way morph that it's still pretty good with just real time manipulation (although the tau editor vids show some preproduction might be needed).

Plus Kyma is not exactly integrated in the same way a plugin is plus I can use loads of Alchemy vsts without needing to bounce down :) same reason my lovely nord modular sits there lonely nowadays!

Will email you guys soon.

I know it maybe many many months before beta but I will try and survive without Kyma till then especially when it seems you guys have the abilities to do it in version 2! Very exciting. Keep up the excellent work! :)

Ben [Camel Audio] wrote:
This is an extra step which works ok for sounds with similar overall harmonic sets (but differing timbres) but not for sounds that rely on strong formants (or non-harmonic partials) like vowels in speech, drums, foley, resonance of an instrument or monophonic to polyphonic. This is where it's not going to work if the harmonics simple follow the fundamental as it falls or rises in pitch. Imagine if both sounds are the same pitch to start of with (say a woman and man singing the same vocal line but with massively different formants) and then you do the morph in alchemy as it is.

I absolutely agree with you that just doing the morph in the way Alchemy does it at the moment is not sufficient for high quality morphs between sounds with very different formants such as a man and a woman. However, what is required here in my opinion is not some mapping of partials to other partials which are not at approximately the same multiple of the fundamental, but a separate capture of the formants and the morphing of this representation separately, from the morphing of the additive and spectral aspects. This is something we are planning to do in Alchemy v2.

consider the "london transport romance" advert here http://www.bantusound.com/SoundMorphing ... ingPage.ht ml where her monophonic voice is stretched both upwards and downwards to match a whole four part string section. That is a perfect example of morphing using partials to fit the actual destination sound.

I don't think its the case that different harmonics of the voice are getting mapped to different notes. What's happening here IMHO is that each harmonic is being split into 4 harmonics (one each for each part of the string section).

You're probably already aware of this, but for the benefit of others reading this, Kyma is excellent but its not magic and it requires very careful editing to get the best results. I suspect that many days, if not weeks, of work have gone into making each of these sound examples sound as good as possible. So in the above example with the string section my guess would be that the author has bent the voice down, and then done 4 separate morphs from that sound into each part of the string section, matching the volume level so that it's constant.

Hope this helps and doesn't come across negatively. I have massive respect for what you guys have achieved in Alchemy and am excited about version 2. If you ever need an additional expose from the games industry or advertising side of things at some point get in touch! We used alchemy's granular engine to help us design an futuristic engine for a car company (can't say who though) and it came in massively handy

That's really cool :) I'm quite happy to discuss resynthesis - its actually my favourite aspect of Alchemy and the bit that I find most interesting to program! Drop an email to support at camelaudio.com and address towards me (Ben) and mention this thread and your KvR name and we'll def consider you for the beta once these features are available.

Cheers
Ben
KVRAF
 
1761 posts since 15 Sep, 2010
 

Postby Neon Breath; Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:37 am

Guys, that morphing discussion is really, really interesting and I've read it all as I'm very interested into sound morphing me too. Funny timing also by the way, as there's a discussion going on right now about audio morphing as a plugin effect, in the effect section: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=373491

Ok, here's my little story about morphing with Alchemy. When I first started experimenting the morphing in Alchemy, I admit I simply just thrown a bunch of random samples in the additive resynthesis engine and started to morph them quickly in Morph XY mode and then be disappointed with the results and just stopped trying after a few minutes. Then one night I decided to take my time, and really try experimenting more seriously and more deeply into Alchemy's ability to morph. Honestly, since I've spent many hours experimenting I have to say I got better with the morphs and I achieved some pretty surprising results. But... Read me well here, it takes TIME. Lot of time, clicks, sound import, adjust, tweak, re-import, re-adjust, re-tweak, throw all in garbage and start over again. I've learned there's definitely no magic recipe except time and lot of experimentation. The results I achieved would not always be qualified as 'musical' for a lot of people but still, they're quite interesting in term of pure sound design audio morphing & experimental sound researches. If you want, when I have the time I can upload some audio examples for you guys, see what you think. I'm not saying what I did is perfect, but there's room for experimentation and really cool surprising results here... But you must invest many hours before nailing something interesting.

I really believe Alchemy is not far away from being a very solid morphing tool. I would not say as smooth and buttery as Kyma but I think it's already pretty close to be just right after Kyma, one of the best morphing tools around. And this is especially true if Camel Audio are already planning to work more at improving Alchemy's morphing features & engine... Please guys, don't let it go and keep working on this already amazing feature! The mechanics are there, everything is in place, it just needs some polishing...
__________________________________________________
http://soundcloud.com/red-fog
http://soundcloud.com/sleeping-on-lotus-ashes
http://landofthedrones.blogspot.ca
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KVRer
 
16 posts since 17 May, 2012, from Helsinki

Postby Samuel Goldenberg; Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:14 pm

I began experimenting with morphing with Kyma, but I had very similar experience as Neon with Alchemy. I thought that I could throw in a musical piece and a nature atmo and morph between them to find something interesting in between. I found distortion. Actually even without morphing the additive resynthesis sounds slightly distorted in Kyma. You all have probably found out in Alchemy too that it's not hard to pick by AB testing the original and the additive resynthesis.

I find some of the Kyma examples very nice, but I've not been able to do it myself. It probably takes time and skill more than I have. Also the only quite ok morphing experiment with Alchemy was with some example sounds from Kyma which were of course carefully chosen for demo. My point is not to rant about Alchemy, nor Kyma. I love Alchemy. I just really really wish that v2 can do beautiful smooth morphing with reasonable effort. So please Camels, don't care about us hurrying the release. Take your time to make it superb.
KVRAF
 
1761 posts since 15 Sep, 2010
 

Postby Neon Breath; Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:17 pm

For the ones who are interested, I posted a few examples of what Alchemy can do with morphing from one sound to another, here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 97#5247597
__________________________________________________
http://soundcloud.com/red-fog
http://soundcloud.com/sleeping-on-lotus-ashes
http://landofthedrones.blogspot.ca
__________________________________________________
KVRian
 
767 posts since 13 Jun, 2006, from Cornwall, UK
 

Postby MWSOS; Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:13 am

Neon Breath wrote:For the ones who are interested, I posted a few examples of what Alchemy can do with morphing from one sound to another, here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 97#5247597


And it's well worth following this link to hear them :D

Thanks NB!


Martin
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KVRAF
 
1761 posts since 15 Sep, 2010
 

Postby Neon Breath; Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:18 am

MWSOS wrote:
Neon Breath wrote:For the ones who are interested, I posted a few examples of what Alchemy can do with morphing from one sound to another, here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 97#5247597


And it's well worth following this link to hear them :D

Thanks NB!


Martin


I appreciate, thanks! :D
__________________________________________________
http://soundcloud.com/red-fog
http://soundcloud.com/sleeping-on-lotus-ashes
http://landofthedrones.blogspot.ca
__________________________________________________
KVRist
 
39 posts since 16 Jun, 2006

Postby musicbynumbers; Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:41 am

Just wanted to back Ben up a bit more that he was right about the importance of being able to strip out and manipulate/morph formants as probably being the key things to morphing sounds (especially if they are the same pitch.)

Formants define the character of the sound and Kyma's morph algos do allow for treating formants separately so if we can get this in Alchemy 2 I think they might crack it! :)

This still means that certain sine waves in one sound may still have to fall or rise to meet the ones in the sound your morphing into for particular sounds sources but these are not harmonics in the normal sense. :)
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