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Diva replaces, well, everything...

Official support for: u-he.com

Moderator: Urs

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KVRAF
 
6670 posts since 20 Jul, 2004, from Boston
 

Postby djanthonyw; Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:30 am

yul wrote:
djanthonyw wrote:I used to have a Mopho and a Tetra. I made this little demo of "Strobe" with one of the presets on the Tetra for fun a while ago when I was testing it. I just found it again. Although, they're not the same presets, I think that the analog vibe is all there in Diva and the sound could be matched 100%.

www.anthonywebster.com/audio/tetra_strobe.mp3
www.anthonywebster.com/audio/diva_strobe.mp3


Hey that's cool for a basic mono patch!


Here's another example with a different patch from Diva.

www.anthonywebster.com/audio/diva_strobe_2.mp3
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KVRian
 
1436 posts since 28 Dec, 2007

Postby analoguesamples909; Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:47 am

thanks for these examples.

with the tetra example I can hear that it has more high freq air even with the filter closed (which is interesting - given the DSI stuff is known for sounding a bit 'choked' compared to other analogue) and also it sounds more musical to my ears.

The diva examples are not bad (second is better) but there is a clear difference - whether you prefer one or the other is debatable and dependent on what you are looking for.

It probably should be mentioned that Diva and Tetra are quite different. Diva is an emulation of some classic analogue - but as Ive written elsewhere - for me it still sounds dull when the filter is closed, and the highs are a bit strident when it is open. It also has a firmness to the sound where I find analogue has more 'give'.

Tetra on the other hand is a modern CEM chip synth with DCO and digital envelopes, so its certainly not the last word representing analogue synthesis. Its fairly well documented that not all people who like analogue synthesis are bowled over by the DSI sound...

Its useful for the consumer to compare DSI stuff and DIva because they are not worlds apart in cost. Of course there are plenty of advantages to Diva. In reality - I think having both is good. Diva does an excellent Moog bass IMO and lots of sounds DSI stuff could not do. And it sits in your computer - how about that.
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KVRAF
 
6670 posts since 20 Jul, 2004, from Boston
 

Postby djanthonyw; Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 am

I think that your observations are pretty spot on. Overall I vastly prefer Diva since it can get very close, and with all the benefits of being a plugin. No regrets selling my analogs. :)
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KVRian
 
1436 posts since 28 Dec, 2007

Postby analoguesamples909; Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:31 am

djanthonyw wrote:I think that your observations are pretty spot on. Overall I vastly prefer Diva since it can get very close, and with all the benefits of being a plugin. No regrets selling my analogs. :)


fair enough. I would say tho - not to base your opinion on analogue synths on an experience with DSI stuff-which sometimes it seems how I read it where you have posted elsewhere. However I have to say - for they type of music I think you are into making (commercial electro house?) - it makes sense to go with Diva. There is the practical side - but I do also think now days the sound of digital synths is more appropriate for many modern styles. tbh if I were getting into most forms of House today Id probably just grab a virus ti and be done with it - but there are a few good plugins now that are on par if you program them well.
I suspect that is why some people did not get on with Diva - because it sounds close to vintage analogue - and the reality is vintage analogue is not always suitable for everything.
KVRist
 
99 posts since 20 Oct, 2010

Postby News From The Sky; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:00 pm

Urs wrote:I don't have a source, but in general Diva's knobs have a larger range...


analoguesamples909 wrote:I have to admit I have not focussed on things like position of settings when comparing my Source - more the sound...


Thanks for the info, Urs and Mr. 909, that's very helpful. Definitely helps dampen my lust for a Sub Phatty...
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Urs
u-he
 
16425 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin
 

Postby Urs; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:39 pm

In our observation, CEM based classics (Sequential stuff, late Obies) have more "fizzy" heights than e.g. stuff based on Roland OTAs, CA3080 or discrete ladders. Dunno about Mopho, but it's been apparent to me with the Matrix12. This may explain why the difference with Diva is bigger there than with the components she's actually modeled on. I can't see us working on this flavour anytime soon, but who knows? Maybe one day we'll check it out.
KVRian
 
1436 posts since 28 Dec, 2007

Postby analoguesamples909; Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:56 pm

Urs wrote:In our observation, CEM based classics (Sequential stuff, late Obies) have more "fizzy" heights than e.g. stuff based on Roland OTAs, CA3080 or discrete ladders. Dunno about Mopho, but it's been apparent to me with the Matrix12. This may explain why the difference with Diva is bigger there than with the components she's actually modeled on. I can't see us working on this flavour anytime soon, but who knows? Maybe one day we'll check it out.


Urs I have to judge my words carefully as I accept that I have not done intense research on the sound - just I have my ears - but seeing as we have the wonders of the t'internet I thought I might ask this. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the observation I have made on analogue synths (and also analogue EQ) vs digital emulations.

I find that a closed filter sounds slightly different in analogue hardware vs a digital version. I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed. Conversely - most digital filters sound a bit muted to me in comparison. I can hear it in the simple tetra example above...although I accept it is a different synth.
I dont know if there is some resonance, dynamics or small saturation in the analogue filter when it is closed - that gives rise to it sounding different - but something seems to be going on. I think I have read others who have experience with analogue gear expressing this also...
It appears to be similar with digital EQ. The one plugin that I find does not suffer from this as much is Nebula - which is sampled and includes saturation and dynamics from analogue hardware...so maybe some of the clue is there?
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KVRAF
 
4760 posts since 25 Feb, 2008, from Babylon an ting
 

Postby hakey; Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:03 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noise floor?
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KVRAF
 
3573 posts since 20 Jul, 2010
 

Postby Sendy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:05 pm

hakey wrote:
analoguesamples909 wrote:I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noisefloor?


That was my initial thought. Definitely something after the filter/synth in any case. Noise is a funny thing, just a trace of it can do the damndest things sometimes.
I can haz Electronic Music Stardom plox?

http://soundcloud.com/sendy
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Urs
u-he
 
16425 posts since 7 Aug, 2002, from Berlin
 

Postby Urs; Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:21 pm

Well, try running Diva out of your machine and back into it through the same mixer as your Mopho.

Also... yeah, Sascha is currently working on that magic noisefloor thing. Not necessarily as a part of Diva, but certainly something that'll help evaluating the phenomenon.

I can only say that we perceived Diva as more crisp and "open" sounding than our reference hardware. We used the cleanest possible setups. You'll find similar comments elsewhere, e.g. Gearslutz, where we discussed the option of adding a "muffle" effect to Diva to take those extra heights out. In all of our taste, we tweaked Diva until she did what the reference synths do, plus a tiny tad of "extra" that we liked more.
KVRian
 
1436 posts since 28 Dec, 2007

Postby analoguesamples909; Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:56 pm

Urs wrote:Well, try running Diva out of your machine and back into it through the same mixer as your Mopho.

Also... yeah, Sascha is currently working on that magic noisefloor thing. Not necessarily as a part of Diva, but certainly something that'll help evaluating the phenomenon.

I can only say that we perceived Diva as more crisp and "open" sounding than our reference hardware. We used the cleanest possible setups. You'll find similar comments elsewhere, e.g. Gearslutz, where we discussed the option of adding a "muffle" effect to Diva to take those extra heights out. In all of our taste, we tweaked Diva until she did what the reference synths do, plus a tiny tad of "extra" that we liked more.


ah. Yes noisefloor could be part of it. However Im not sure if it is all - because for example Nebula programs do not contain noise info as far as I can understand it-and they sculpt the sound in a very similar way to real analogue. I do think there is some dynamic or saturated element to it...but thats cool sacha is involved. He is someone held in great esteem. I'll not easily forget the moment where Slate challenged anyone to beat his FG-X in a loudness/punch scenario - and sacha pops up with an example of Ammunition. Enough said.
But cool - you think there is something to it as a phenomenon...I live in hope that small bits of feedback might in the end lead to tweaks along the way to perfection.

I agree there is a crisp clean element to Diva sound - and ironically considering my filter comments - I was one of the people lobbying for the muffle parameter. However for me that was in reference to the Oscilators which I do feel are quite strident in the high end - although I am thankful they have a brightness that is comparable to real analogue Osc. I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....

the tetra examples arent mine...but I have been considering running Diva thru a preamp and compressor to shape it in the analogue realm a bit...
Last edited by analoguesamples909 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KVRAF
 
7932 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:58 pm

hakey wrote:
analoguesamples909 wrote:I get a sense of 'air' and high freq from analogue synths even when the cutoff is low/closed.

Noise floor?


a tiny bit of noise has so much effect...
KVRAF
 
7932 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:26 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:I agree there is a crisp clean element to Diva sound - and ironically considering my filter comments - I was one of the people lobbying for the muffle parameter. However for me that was in reference to the Oscilators which I do feel are quite strident in the high end - although I am thankful they have a brightness that is comparable to real analogue Osc. I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....


Out of curiosity, what samplerate do you render Diva at?


Because Bazille has multiple simultaneous filter outputs, I sometimes take the Lowpass as main sound and then add in a teeny amount of the BP output plus a teeny amount of noise...
KVRAF
 
7932 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:57 pm

analoguesamples909 wrote:I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....



Bazille sounds sweeter to me in the highs... I think in the highs the audio rate modulation creates a cleaner sound... less harshness or hardness even though it might be very crisp...

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille58a.mp3

This sound does not use the LP filter... just BP (twice) and it has FM and some resonance which adds the bit of edge... but even so it is quite clean even on the higher notes...
KVRian
 
1436 posts since 28 Dec, 2007

Postby analoguesamples909; Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:18 pm

pdxindy wrote:
analoguesamples909 wrote:I agree there is a crisp clean element to Diva sound - and ironically considering my filter comments - I was one of the people lobbying for the muffle parameter. However for me that was in reference to the Oscilators which I do feel are quite strident in the high end - although I am thankful they have a brightness that is comparable to real analogue Osc. I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....


Out of curiosity, what samplerate do you render Diva at?


Because Bazille has multiple simultaneous filter outputs, I sometimes take the Lowpass as main sound and then add in a teeny amount of the BP output plus a teeny amount of noise...


I dont render it really just play - tried it at various rates...interesting tactic with bazille...

pdxindy wrote:
analoguesamples909 wrote:I do feel it could be something to do with the dynamic variation over time of analogue Osc that might cause them to sound less 'hard' in the high end - even if for a given snapshot the hf content between Diva model and an analogue model is very similar....



Bazille sounds sweeter to me in the highs... I think in the highs the audio rate modulation creates a cleaner sound... less harshness or hardness even though it might be very crisp...

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille58a.mp3

This sound does not use the LP filter... just BP (twice) and it has FM and some resonance which adds the bit of edge... but even so it is quite clean even on the higher notes...


cool sound - but clean and quite VA sounding. Im interested in the very close analogue emulation issue...
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