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I am very surprised.

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

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Postby deleted; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:01 pm

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chk071
KVRAF
 
3102 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:04 pm

michi_mak wrote:and for a last time : there are other devs who don't suppose their potential customers to be thieves in the first place although they have to deal with the same issues...

You are a hopeless case.
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:07 pm

michi_mak wrote:
mutools wrote:
michi_mak wrote:could you at least TRY to imagine that user A really stopped using your software for various reasons? why not try this for a second - even it is only for the sake of discussion ( i already learned that you don't trust your customers... )


Can you give me a reason why you think i did not yet?...


as you keep repeating "user A is keeping his key after selling to user B" like a mantra...



No he didn't... you are misinterpreting
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:11 pm

michi_mak wrote:
mutools wrote:It is impossible to verify that if a user transfers his user key that he/she effectively erases all copies of this MuLab / MUX user key and that he/she does not use it again. I don't want to be negative, and i'm confident that there are many honest people, but at the other hand one has to be realistic too...


there you go...

edit : "one has to be realistic too" does NOT sound like giving benefit of doubt to me...


again, most people lock their doors... not because they think everyone is a thief, but because some people are.

You are making a false argument
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:23 pm

michi_mak wrote:
chk071 wrote:
hibidy wrote:I don't care for the idea that a product that I bought into on the premise of "small/local" developer that didn't deliver on fixing a basic problem (where the problem became he said/she said) doesn't have a resale policy because of the reasons outlined which seem to be "pirates are bad so all suffer".

But that's totally normal in society. Otherwise we wouldn't need traffic signs or doorlocks. The big misunderstanding of some people that have posted in this thread is that they think with such a policy everyone would be assumed to be a thief, which is as wrong as it can get.

And tbh, arguments like "But what if person A wants to sell the product to person B has never asked for any support and will never do" are pretty naive. The next day the product could stop working on his computer or person B has install issues, and then support will surely come into play. Same with the argument that we are all so nice and morally integer people that we will surely uninstall our product when we sell our license. The point is that there are people who aren't so morally integer. If you feel like complaining about the way you are treated, do it to these people, no company is to be blamed for their behavior.


i really like the way you complain about others constructing very very very peculiar single cases but do the same with your "what if the computer failed the next day"...


It is not a single case, it is a statistical inevitability
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:26 pm

Albert.VST wrote:And how about a buy-back scheme for companies that won't allow reselling. Within a fixed number of weeks if you do not like it, without any discussion(to avoid this, they could first give a temporary license, if you change it for the permanent one you have bought it non transferable terms).

And when you discover a repeatable bug, and the manufacturer doesn't want to solve it, they buy it back from you against a fixed refund scheme (let's say -3% per month, so in little less than 3 years the value is 0, which could be fair as the economic value of the original not updated software due to OS updates etc. is gone).

Just some thoughts, though you likely will get into the discussion if it is a bug (you say it is, manufacturer says it isn't). How to define, but in this case some effort from a manufacturer to prove you wrong should be expected as you are still the first owner that they need to support.


Doesn't work because then people will just buy stuff for a particular project and sell it back for what ends up a very cheap rental...
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:27 pm

michi_mak wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
TheoM wrote:
samsam wrote:^ Why don't you read the rest of the thread where the dev is discussing other options?


I read every page.. and i'm taken by the assumption that all his customers who if ever wanted to sell would keep and use the software. With even a basic understanding in English it is clear that that is precisely what Mr Mutools insinuated.



He is not assuming that... you just have a vested interest cause you a prince of buying and reselling.

It is fine with me if developers have a no transfers policy. If I were a developer, I might have a no transfers policy (disregarding the legal side for the moment) simply because I would be annoyed to be spending my time keeping track of all that stuff.

If I sell a hardware synth, I do not have to keep track of every time it is sold to someone. I am free of all that. Do you think Korg knows who possesses each Korg Z1? They don't have to put any resources to who currently owns any of their synths that are past warranty. Their old stuff that is past warranty is now 'in the wild'

With software, the developer has to keep track of every sale because that is the only way to know who are the current customers who get support and upgrades. This never ends because there is no warranty expiration.

Hardware is also self contained. Software is dependent on computer hardware and OS so it must be continually updated. With software there is endless future work for which the developer will not get paid.

If I buy a used hardware synth past warranty, there is no expectation of support. But with software that is still sold, every copy is always new. Every person who buys a used softsynth expects full support, upgrades, etc.

And if legally I, as a developer, am forced to offer such support forever, no matter how many times the particular license is sold, then that is very good reason to never be a software developer!


your hardware synth example is wrong...

btw why are you as a customer so keen on not having granted rights???


how is the hardware synth example wrong?
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:28 pm

michi_mak wrote:and for a last time


thank you!
TheoM
KVRAF
 
19214 posts since 4 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne Australia

Postby TheoM; Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:30 am

pdxindy wrote:
TheoM wrote:
samsam wrote:^ Why don't you read the rest of the thread where the dev is discussing other options?


I read every page.. and i'm taken by the assumption that all his customers who if ever wanted to sell would keep and use the software. With even a basic understanding in English it is clear that that is precisely what Mr Mutools insinuated.



He is not assuming that... you just have a vested interest cause you a prince of buying and reselling.

It is fine with me if developers have a no transfers policy. If I were a developer, I might have a no transfers policy (disregarding the legal side for the moment) simply because I would be annoyed to be spending my time keeping track of all that stuff.

If I sell a hardware synth, I do not have to keep track of every time it is sold to someone. I am free of all that. Do you think Korg knows who possesses each Korg Z1? They don't have to put any resources to who currently owns any of their synths that are past warranty. Their old stuff that is past warranty is now 'in the wild'

With software, the developer has to keep track of every sale because that is the only way to know who are the current customers who get support and upgrades. This never ends because there is no warranty expiration.

Hardware is also self contained. Software is dependent on computer hardware and OS so it must be continually updated. With software there is endless future work for which the developer will not get paid.

If I buy a used hardware synth past warranty, there is no expectation of support. But with software that is still sold, every copy is always new. Every person who buys a used softsynth expects full support, upgrades, etc.

And if legally I, as a developer, am forced to offer such support forever, no matter how many times the particular license is sold, then that is very good reason to never be a software developer!



hey, why on earth do people do that? The topic clearly progresses into me and mr Mutools working it out, TOTALLY, and him explaining his side and vice versa, shaking hands, and parting well.

Why quote a post from so early in the topic to try and make me look bad? why do people do that? is it a personal problem against me? What else could it be?

Never knew we had an issue. Interesting to find out.

Yes i am the prince of buying and selling, i see the thousands of products currently in the KVR MP, and all of them are my topics. Wait, i have one topic.. in hundreds and hundreds.. so many of them that barely anything can stay on the front page for more than a couple of hours.

:roll:

Just keep telling yourself that. In fact, if you want facts, i have sold less here than almost anyone else in the last few months.
Last edited by TheoM on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Just call me shitload, cause I own a shitload of plugins!"
TheoM
KVRAF
 
19214 posts since 4 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne Australia

Postby TheoM; Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:32 am

pdxindy wrote:
Ghostwave wrote:
TheoM wrote:@ Ghostwave, i have a question.. do you think the fee Andy of cytomic proposed to me was fair? He said his set of skills gets him $300 per hour.. it takes ten minutes to complete a transfer from a-z, so the fee should be $50

do you think $50 is fair for a $99 product? just curious
I'm on your side here. $50 is plain ridiculous as it doesn't take the same level of skill to program DSP code and transfer a licence.
If his time is so precious, he could hire someone to deal with the transfers for a much cheaper fee.
For a $99 product, anything up to $10 is acceptable to me.


Sure $10 is acceptable to you... but it is not acceptable to the guy doing it... and hiring someone has other costs and headaches

$50 is not ridiculous. $50 is how that person values their time. If you don't want to pay $50 then don't buy the product in the first place. The developer should not be forced to do work at a price he is not happy with.



Well it really won't matter any more, because when the EU judgement does become LAW, and i think it will, he won't be able to enforce ANY amount for a SALE*. Whether you agree with the Eu thing or no is up to everyone's individual opinion of course.

One day, if something happens to you and you desperately need money, and you have a bunch of unsellable software, let's see if you change your tune there.

The software is something one can sell that is not life essential like other things in the house..

* He can however enforce an amount for an official transfer
Last edited by TheoM on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Just call me shitload, cause I own a shitload of plugins!"
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
 
3755 posts since 16 Dec, 2002, from over there

Postby VariKusBrainZ; Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:40 am

terms and conditions apply.....
read them before you buy

How many times do we hear this tacked onto the end of TV adverts?!
Doesnt seem to have sunk in though :p
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:19 pm

TheoM wrote:Why quote a post from so early in the topic to try and make me look bad? why do people do that? is it a personal problem against me? What else could it be?


no motive other than reading through the thread and responding to the post before finishing the thread...

cheers
rod_zero
KVRian
 
696 posts since 28 Jan, 2011, from MEXICO

Postby rod_zero; Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:21 pm

Laws > EULA's

Terms and conditions must conform to laws or are invalid.
dedication to flying
TheoM
KVRAF
 
19214 posts since 4 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne Australia

Postby TheoM; Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:22 pm

pdxindy wrote:
TheoM wrote:Why quote a post from so early in the topic to try and make me look bad? why do people do that? is it a personal problem against me? What else could it be?


no motive other than reading through the thread and responding to the post before finishing the thread...

cheers


ok no probs.
"Just call me shitload, cause I own a shitload of plugins!"
pdxindy
KVRAF
 
8872 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds

Postby pdxindy; Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 pm

TheoM wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Ghostwave wrote:
TheoM wrote:@ Ghostwave, i have a question.. do you think the fee Andy of cytomic proposed to me was fair? He said his set of skills gets him $300 per hour.. it takes ten minutes to complete a transfer from a-z, so the fee should be $50

do you think $50 is fair for a $99 product? just curious
I'm on your side here. $50 is plain ridiculous as it doesn't take the same level of skill to program DSP code and transfer a licence.
If his time is so precious, he could hire someone to deal with the transfers for a much cheaper fee.
For a $99 product, anything up to $10 is acceptable to me.


Sure $10 is acceptable to you... but it is not acceptable to the guy doing it... and hiring someone has other costs and headaches

$50 is not ridiculous. $50 is how that person values their time. If you don't want to pay $50 then don't buy the product in the first place. The developer should not be forced to do work at a price he is not happy with.



Well it really won't matter any more, because when the EU judgement does become LAW, and i think it will, he won't be able to enforce ANY amount for a transfer. Whether you agree with the Eu thing or no is up to everyone's individual opinion of course.



If it really comes about that transfers without transfer fees are enforced that means the developer is being expected to fulfill an unending stream of work for no pay... I doubt that will happen.
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