What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

Do you use construction kits?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRian
 
771 posts since 19 May, 2011, from North Carolina

Postby JoeCat; Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Interesting thread...

The construction kits have commercialized the redundant parts of most popular genres, so the nature of commercial production has changed - it's like this in almost every industry. Not much scratch food in a restaurant anymore...

I think it means, however, that for producers striving for uniqueness, it's even more important now to work outside the establish genres, which is not easy - you risk alienating your listeners. And how many people can invent/reinvent a genre?

Else, you may have created every sound on your deep house track from scratch, but no one will know.

(I'm one of those OCD people who almost never even use presets, not because I think it's lazy, but because I'm working for my own enjoyment, and enjoy scratch baking. But if I were a commercial producer, I'd be broke. Who's gonna pay me for a day of making my own kick drum, 'cause the masses will say "I never heard a 60 hz sine wave decay quite like that"? :hihi: )
User avatar
KVRAF
 
7375 posts since 12 Mar, 2012, from South Bavaria - near the alps... :-)

Postby Tricky-Loops; Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:51 pm

JoeCat wrote:Who's gonna pay me for a day of making my own kick drum, 'cause the masses will say "I never heard a 60 hz sine wave decay quite like that"? :hihi: )
Of course, the masses will not. But you could create a video tutorial about how to make a never ever heard 60 hz sine wave decay, and ask for a few dollars... But, I'm sure, in this case everybody will make those 60 hz sine wave decays till nobody can hear them any more... :P
KVRian
 
1204 posts since 10 Mar, 2004

Postby Mikelo; Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:57 pm

I purchase construction kits, but only if they come with midi files.
I like to buy kits or packs with say, lush midi piano riffs for instance and chop up the midi files and then use either a virtual piano and / or build with other instruments like guitar, strings using Kontakt etc. I would then add my own drums, bass, strings, lead lines etc ontop.
Personally, I would never use, for instance a bass line wav file in my own production but I can understand and respect anyone who does.
At the end of the day, I see construction loops as tools.
KVRAF
 
2286 posts since 31 Oct, 2004, from Mtl, Canada
 

Postby SampleScience; Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:06 pm

JoeCat wrote:(I'm one of those OCD people who almost never even use presets, not because I think it's lazy, but because I'm working for my own enjoyment, and enjoy scratch baking. But if I were a commercial producer, I'd be broke. Who's gonna pay me for a day of making my own kick drum, 'cause the masses will say "I never heard a 60 hz sine wave decay quite like that"? :hihi: )


Pheek is in a similar situation where he goes into the "trouble" of making almost everything from scratch but his productions goes almost unnoticed because of the flood of minimal techno released every weeks. When you listen to a lot of minimal techno, you realize that he has a very original, unique sound:

https://soundcloud.com/pheek
User avatar
KVRAF
 
7375 posts since 12 Mar, 2012, from South Bavaria - near the alps... :-)

Postby Tricky-Loops; Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:37 am

SampleScience wrote:Pheek is in a similar situation where he goes into the "trouble" of making almost everything from scratch but his productions goes almost unnoticed because of the flood of minimal techno released every weeks. When you listen to a lot of minimal techno, you realize that he has a very original, unique sound:https://soundcloud.com/pheek
Nearly UNNOTICED??

Most of his tracks have over 800 clicks on Soundcloud, do you really call this "UNNOTICED"... :shock:
KVRian
 
996 posts since 14 Jun, 2012, from Toronto, Canada

Postby schnapsglas; Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:40 am

I make every single sound from scratch (unless stars align correctly and a preset gives me EXACTLY what I need). I wonder if people notice. Doesn't matter. I wish they did, but in the end, I do it this way because I feel it's better.

Who's that engineer who EQs each word of the vocal take differently? Forgot the name...
It's all about the wavelets. I dream of the perfect additive synthesis.
You can hire me if you are in Toronto! Contact for details.
KVRAF
 
2286 posts since 31 Oct, 2004, from Mtl, Canada
 

Postby SampleScience; Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:05 pm

Tricky-Loops wrote:
SampleScience wrote:Pheek is in a similar situation where he goes into the "trouble" of making almost everything from scratch but his productions goes almost unnoticed because of the flood of minimal techno released every weeks. When you listen to a lot of minimal techno, you realize that he has a very original, unique sound:https://soundcloud.com/pheek
Nearly UNNOTICED??

Most of his tracks have over 800 clicks on Soundcloud, do you really call this "UNNOTICED"... :shock:


Well, on a large scale, he gets unnoticed! :lol: But yeah, I guess 800 plays is being noticed...
KVRian
 
771 posts since 19 May, 2011, from North Carolina

Postby JoeCat; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:18 am

SampleScience wrote:Pheek is in a similar situation where he goes into the "trouble" of making almost everything from scratch but his productions goes almost unnoticed because of the flood of minimal techno released every weeks. When you listen to a lot of minimal techno, you realize that he has a very original, unique sound:

https://soundcloud.com/pheek


Haven't heard him but will need to give a listen (I'm in the waiting area of my auto mechanic's right now :hihi:)

schnapsglas wrote:I make every single sound from scratch (unless stars align correctly and a preset gives me EXACTLY what I need). I wonder if people notice. Doesn't matter. I wish they did, but in the end, I do it this way because I feel it's better.

Who's that engineer who EQs each word of the vocal take differently? Forgot the name...


Would love to see that guy's house (alphabetized spice racks, shirts hung in order from light to dark...). I think for a lot of commercial production "hand tools" are the norm again. I experimented recently for the first time with hand-drawing the gain automation on a vocal line rather than relying solely on a compressor - was time consuming but worth it. But it's one thing if you're working full-time on a pop album, another if you are trying to bang out an EDM track every week.

I've heard of hip-hop producers having assistants who will just spend the day auditioning sampled kicks. There's a life...
User avatar
KVRAF
 
7375 posts since 12 Mar, 2012, from South Bavaria - near the alps... :-)

Postby Tricky-Loops; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:23 am

JoeCat wrote:I've heard of hip-hop producers having assistants who will just spend the day auditioning sampled kicks. There's a life...
:shock: After one working day the assistents can't sleep any more, for sure... bam...bam...bam... :bang:
KVRAF
 
2605 posts since 20 Sep, 2005

Postby codec_spurt; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:37 am

whyterabbyt wrote:some people use them because they have deadlines to work to.
some people use them because they're focussed on a different part of the artistic process, like singing.
some people use them as placeholders until they replace them with their own material.
some people use them to learn from, or with.
some people use them because they like to repurpose material, in or out of its original context.
some people use them because they're just having fun.
some people use them because they dont know better(*)
some people use them because they're lazy(*)
some people use them for more than one of the above reasons
some people use them for none of the above reasons

(*) which is ironic because the stereotypical reasons presented as to why uses them and why, tend to be lazy or from people who dont know better too.


I'm guilty of most of those things. I was too lazy to read through them all and stopped at not knowing better, because, you know...

Just one question. What is a construction kit? I thought I knew what it meant but seeing some of the replies, maybe I don't totally understand. Serious question.


I bought BFD Eco and am just blown away with it. And its sounds. I just bought a couple more expanders - the signature snares vol.1 & 2, oh and also the JEX kit. Man what beautiful, versatile sounds. I digress.

I didn't build the drums. Though I do take the time to make my own percsussion instruments where possible. I sampled some of them and gave them away in that free Geist Expansion pack I did. If a man lived for a thousand years, I'd like to take 10 or 20 years out of that short time and build my own. Alas...

I program my own beats. I'm pretty good. Well, as good as I'm ever gonna be by now. I get by. I can't play drums - I have no rhythm, but I know what sounds good. So I will never be able to play drums. EVER.

Coming back to one of Rab's points, I'm kind of working to a deadline and working as the songwriter/singer/multi-instrumentalist. I've tried forming bands, but I've found unless I pay hard cash, I'm not so wonderful people want to invest time or anything else in me. I'm on my lonesome on this one.
What do I do? Give up? Or just play the instruments badly? I choose the latter. Of course, you can't have terrible drums, so I have just bought a producer pack from Groove Monkee. VERY very impressed. Great prices, great variation, non-intrusive copy protection, nice generous demos..

So, I get world class drummers and steal their playing, along with the world class recording engineers who have worked in the world class studios recording the world class drum sounds themselves. All presented to me by a world class company, at world class prices. :lol:

I've no pretensions to being a drummer, so this suits me fine. I have enough of a challenge recording my acoustic guitar well, playing bass in time. Plus any keyboard parts... Engineering it. Mixing it. And then Mastering it.
I would pay people that really know what they are doing in these areas if I had the money. More than happily. I would even accept services for free or in kind (stop sniggering) should the offer ever be made. I'd also use a proper microphone other than the only one I currently have which is my Zoom H2n (not complaining but it does have its drawbacks). I'd do a lot of things. Time, resources, lack of talent in certain areas, and an ambition to succeed after spending a lifetime dedicated to music, spur me on to finish what I started. I'm not a proud man, though I take pride in my work...

:roll:


Oh and I'm lazy.

------------------------
"We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris." -- Larry Wall, Programming Perl.
-------------------------------

I actually have the Camel book, btw.

Anyway, I have hubris too, in the milder usage of the word. I believe, rightly or wrongly that I can pretty much blow 70 percent of other drum programmers out of the water when it comes to certain styles of music, so my ego is still intact after 'stealing' others work. So, to me, using third party midi files is the same as having a drummer in your band, or hiring a session guy. I hold my head up high. And I won't make any more bad drummer jokes here btw. All jokes aside. The drummer is the main man in the band. The lead singer likes to think he is, but musically he is not. The drummer is the clock the bass player synchronizes his musical watch to. And everything good, if it is good, follows from there. The drummer is the weak link in the chain. Without a good solid drummer (it's better to be basic and solid, than flashy and 'drifting'), no band can succeed to any decent degree. But I digress again.


And I have impatience too. Because you know, I'm not getting any younger..

I also use presets. I have some synths I don't enjoy programming. I have others that I don't know how to program. And most annoyingly I have others that I have really tried very hard to program and they still sound like ****. My fault, not the VST. I'm looking at you here Mr. V-Station! For those I buy patches (thank you Xenos):

http://xenossoundworks.com/v_station.html

150 awesome sounds for less than a pint of beer. Cheers mate! I also take a small amount of pride in knowing my low frequency oscillator from my flux-induced decombobulator, and being able to tweak just about any of the synths I use, close to perfection, once I find a sound that is in the ball park. Even the synths like V-Station that I just can't program, well program to sound good anyway.

Then again I do program. I've spent more hours programming synths, from a Yamaha DX100 to a Wavestation to my beloved Ensoniq SD-1 to a few others, than I care to think about. I don't feel like I've got anything to prove to anyone. I'm not as great a sound designer as those that call themselves sound designers. I might say I do a bit of sound design, but I don't call myself a 'Sound Designer'. I get by, and very often share what I've done for free, well always for free, when I do get around to sharing. I have a 120 DCAM Strobe presets still sitting on my hd waiting to go out. I've decided to release them when I update my Geist Expander with a new skin and the old skins converted to work with the latest version. If I can still change the skins that is, I haven't checked. No time. But again, I digress.

I can't sing in tune, I use Newtone and Melodyne. I've worked damn hard and I don't intend on stopping now. No one can tell the difference anyway, well apart from the drum programming, of course programming a drum and bass beat is a whole different kettle of drums to trying to convince someone a live-drummer played on your recordings. For that, as I mentioned I use midi 'grooves', have a hell of a lot of fun and support companies that provide a very fairly priced service for what they do (Groove Monkee). I shall be buying from them again. And most importantly of all, I am helping to a small degree to keep a real drummer in work, doing what he probably likes to do best. I'm sure he's not complaining.

Regarding Groove Monkee, I want their country pack next time, it wasn't included in the producer pack I bought. I can write a country and western song, I can even sing it badly, but I just can't program those drums, with that feel needed, for that type of music.


Just some thoughts and musings.


whyterabbyt wrote:some people use them for none of the above reasons


Oh and to conclude, whyterabbyt, some people use them for ALL of the reasons you noted. Well all except the one I just quoted there - that would be illogical, but I'm sure you understand what I mean, even if I could explain it better. In fact, I can't think of another ONE reason, other than what you have mentioned. For me at least, you covered all the bases. Spot on! Oh, apart from 'because I can'. :)


But I'll still make my own instruments, record them, collate them and package them in other presets, for others to use freely and for free. It makes me feel as if I am giving something back and assuages any guilt I might possibly feel over the 'theft' of others artistic endeavors. Be it their sounds, their playing, their construction of the drums/drum kits themselves, or just their time. The most precious gift any human being can give another, out of all the reasons posited, in my not so humble opinion, on this matter at least.

If only man could live for a thousand years...


cheers.
============================
On the edgeness, In the dark of town.
============================
User avatar
KVRAF
 
18474 posts since 26 Jul, 2005, from Inside Schroedinger's Cat...or am I...

Postby robojam; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:38 am

My daughter has plenty of legos if I want that sort of thing, so I'll stick to learning to play instruments and writing music from scratch.
KVRAF
 
2605 posts since 20 Sep, 2005

Postby codec_spurt; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:46 am

robojam wrote:My daughter has plenty of legos if I want that sort of thing, so I'll stick to learning to play instruments and writing music from scratch.


What is the expression?

Facepalm I believe.

:hihi:


You know what. I respect that. I respect you for that. I think your way is just as valid as my way. And I think if more so called musicians had that attitude then music might be a bit more interesting on the whole. But I've made my point. Ten times over.


Still not sure what a construction kit is though, so maybe I've jumped the gun after posting yet another 'TL;DR' rant.


:)

cheers.
============================
On the edgeness, In the dark of town.
============================
KVRAF
 
2605 posts since 20 Sep, 2005

Postby codec_spurt; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:52 am

Tricky-Loops wrote:
whyterabbyt wrote:some people use them because they have deadlines to work to.
some people use them because they're focussed on a different part of the artistic process, like singing.
some people use them as placeholders until they replace them with their own material.
some people use them to learn from, or with.
some people use them because they like to repurpose material, in or out of its original context.
some people use them because they're just having fun.
some people use them because they dont know better(*)
some people use them because they're lazy(*)
some people use them for more than one of the above reasons
some people use them for none of the above reasons
That's an interesting list, it shows that you must be a programmer (looks like code)... :wink:



Nah, not the work of a 'real' programmer. A 'real' programmer would have used a 'for' loop. In Assembler. Or Machine Code. 'Twas but a hack.

Perhaps Rab is having a day off today.

:lol:
============================
On the edgeness, In the dark of town.
============================
User avatar
KVRAF
 
7375 posts since 12 Mar, 2012, from South Bavaria - near the alps... :-)

Postby Tricky-Loops; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:52 am

codec_spurt wrote:Still not sure what a construction kit is though
Just to clarify, as a "construction kit" I've meant a "song construction kit", i. e. you get the single stems (drums, synth, guitar, piano, organ etc.) in one folder and create a complete song with them.

BDF Eco and all that stuff aren't a construction kit, at least not in my understanding.
User avatar
KVRAF
 
2376 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO
  

Postby foosnark; Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:58 am

I don't tend to buy loops. I have been known to use free drum loops, and then chop them or process them very heavily. It doesn't seem worth spending money to get at source material when I'm going to completely change the groove and the overall sound anyway.

I also sometimes record my own percussion loops, or use loops I've made with Korg DS-10 or phone apps or whatever.
PreviousNext

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Samplers, Sampling & Sample Libraries