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Kyma & Its Alternatives

Anything about hardware musical instruments.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

dayjob
KVRian
 
705 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Postby dayjob; Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:49 pm

Syncretia wrote:I'm pretty frustrated with Kyma right now. I've been able to get a few interesting sounds out of it. But, nothing I could use in a track without manipulating it heavily in Ableton. It's all just glitchy percussion type stuff. I've tried quite a few of the inbuilt "sounds" (patches) but there's nothing that really grabs me in terms making something musical. The focus on Kyma is really on sound timbres. But, I need something that's playable as an instrument. I want to hit notes on my midi keyboard and have them sound good. So, far I haven't been able to do that with Kyma.

I think I need help with this. Not sure where to go from here actually.


try the kyma wiki at symboic sound. i bet you can get some help there.. or at least pushed down the right path
User avatar
KTlin
KVRist
 
228 posts since 20 Jul, 2009

Postby KTlin; Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:08 am

Syncretia wrote:
KTlin wrote:Hi Syncretia. I'm reading your journal on Kyma experience and I find it quite enjoyable and helpful. Cheers for that. :tu:

Now, I don't know if you heard about this software that was released not long ago, called Integra Live. Some say it's a bit like Kyma, but it doesn't require any special hardware, and even more, it's free.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=371046


OMG! KTlin!

Integra Live is soooooo gooood!!

Wow!

I cracked it open ten minutes ago and I'm already able to do all kinds of great granular stuff! I'm getting sounds out of this that I wanted to get out of Kyma but couldn't. Fantastic! And, I haven't gotten in to the scripting side of it yet. This is a @#$#ing winner!

:D
Nice. I'm glad my recommendation was helpful.

I did notice you haven't updated your blog on Kyma for some time now, so I thought maybe you have a hard time with it. Sorry to hear that.
VariKusBrainZ
KVRAF
 
3938 posts since 16 Dec, 2002, from over there

Postby VariKusBrainZ; Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:14 am

Sounds like you want someone to make the sounds for you.
You need to learn your tools, Kyma especially.
User avatar
George
KVRAF
 
2628 posts since 17 Jul, 2002

Postby George; Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:41 am

Try Vertigo.
dayjob
KVRian
 
705 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Postby dayjob; Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:30 am

kyma takes time. you have to think in long term. if you stick with it then along the way you'll many little "aha" moments and break throughs.

it's an endeavor that is quite a challenge.. you can't expect it to come easy.

try small things. when i had mine i would use it for live processing of hardware while i was learning other bits. that EUverb is amazing. i configured lot's of simple small patches to do live processing and use it like an FX box and so that way it was fitting into my workflow in some way while i was trying to figure out more complex stuff.

i'd say 90% of the people who use kyma or any complex thing like kyma.. have gone through frustrating times figuring things out.. same w/max/msp/reaktor etc...

your expectation should be that it will be a struggle. :wink:
Syncretia
KVRist
 
312 posts since 9 Aug, 2011

Postby Syncretia; Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:26 am

I did notice you haven't updated your blog on Kyma for some time now, so I thought maybe you have a hard time with it. Sorry to hear that.


Well, yes. I had been making progress, figuring little things out bit by bit, learning, watching the videos etc. but I hit a bit of a brick wall and there was nothing else to post on my blog. The trouble is not creating sounds, or using Kyma on a technical level, it's taming Kyma to the point where the sounds are musical and can fit in to a piece of music.

Sounds like you want someone to make the sounds for you.
You need to learn your tools, Kyma especially.


Wow. I guess you haven't spent any time reading my blog, or the multitude of lengthy posts that I've put on several forums, or watched the hours I've poured in to pulling Kyma sounds apart, reading the manual and watching videos then.

Just face it, you have no idea how to use the software youve just bought


Um... perhaps you didn't notice but that's kinda the point I've been making..

kyma takes time. you have to think in long term.

if you stick with it then along the way you'll many little "aha" moments and break throughs.

i'd say 90% of the people who use kyma or any complex thing like kyma.. have gone through frustrating times figuring things out.. same w/max/msp/reaktor etc...


Don't worry. I'm in this for the long haul. I anticipated a very steep learning curve from the beginning. I knew what I was getting myself in to before I forked out the cash. But, I'd certainly say that Reaktor was nowhere near as frustrating to figure out as Kyma.

your expectation should be that it will be a struggle.


It really depends on what you mean by should

If you mean that I should have expected that using Kyma would be like getting ravaged by an angry gorilla, then yes I agree. I expected to feel that way after using it. That's what everyone else says as well.

But, if you mean that a software package ought to hurt, then I'd beg to differ. There are plenty of synths around such as Integra Live that are really simple to use and have really deep potential. I strongly disagree with people that say that Kyma is somehow superior because of the way that scripting is built in to the engine. Max also has a very powerful scripting engine that is easier to understand.

I think the one thing that makes Kyma superior is the sheer vastness of the array of synthsis modules that are there and the fact that there is a dedicated group of hardcore followers.

Meanwhile I'm getting the kinds of sounds that I wanted to get from Kyma in other synths. I've gotten some great sounds out of Reaktor, Ableton and Integra Live. Really good sounds!

I also just did a short sound design course. It gave me a lot of insight in to where Kyma comes from. The lecturer was a hardcore Kyma fiend and had been using it since the beginning. He was getting interesting granular sounds out of it, but again - he wasn't doing anything musical - just sound textures. All the sounds that I've downloaded from the Kyma wiki are non-musical. You know - sounds like violins morphing in cats screeching etc.

I know I'm eventually going to get over this hump but I can't really say when that's going to happen. I just have to keep bashing away at it.
cron
KVRAF
 
2162 posts since 27 Dec, 2002, from London

Postby cron; Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:50 am

Thanks for the blog Syncretia. I've enjoyed reading about your experiences. I'm sure the wall will be vaulted soon.
dayjob
KVRian
 
705 posts since 6 Nov, 2006

Postby dayjob; Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:41 pm

i guess when i said "struggle" i was thinking of myself because i sure did struggle with it.

it sounds like you're moving up over that hump though. i check your blog now and then. i think it could become a good resource for people getting into or thinking about getting into kyma
deastman
KVRAF
 
4115 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:44 pm

If you're looking for a topic for another blog post, I'd like to hear more about your current frustration. Why can't you get a musical sound out of it? Surely there must be basic oscillators, filters, and envelopes which you could use to make musical sounds and capture them in your DAW? Interesting sound design and glitchy effects make excellent seasonings for a composition, but I'm sure it must be capable of bog-standard melodic sounds as well. So what is the obstacle?
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/4" audio patchcord
Syncretia
KVRist
 
312 posts since 9 Aug, 2011

Postby Syncretia; Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:53 pm

Thanks for the encouragement guys. I will get over the hump. And, I will post a lot more information about Kyma on my website with YouTube videos etc. when I get the hang of it. I haven't posted any YouTube vids etc. because I haven't got anything to show anyone yet.

Why can't you get a musical sound out of it? Surely there must be basic oscillators, filters, and envelopes which you could use to make musical sounds and capture them in your DAW?


Yes. It does. But, why would I use Kyma for that? I have dozens of synths that do that stuff. My weapon of choice for that kind of stuff is Zebra. I bought Kyma to get specific types of sounds that I couldn't get out of other synths. I guess that's probably part of my problem as well. I guess I'm trying to run before I can walk in a sense.

Interesting sound design and glitchy effects make excellent seasonings for a composition


Yes. Totally. But, that hasn't really been my focus. My focus has been on trying to to tame samples in to something that I could play on midi keyboard for example, and especially to be able to morph two pitched sounds together and make it pleasing to the ear. But, I've had more luck with this in other synths. Anyway, the Kyma forum is quite a good resource and it's helping me to push forward bit by bit.
Syncretia
KVRist
 
312 posts since 9 Aug, 2011

Postby Syncretia; Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:18 pm

Win! I just found a module in Kyma which allows me to force the harmonic content of any input to a given pitch. It means that I can take the timbre of a given sample and play it like a synth. Fantastic! I've been wanting to do that for a long time.
marmess
KVRer
 
2 posts since 23 May, 2012

Postby marmess; Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:36 pm

if anyone interested, I am selling my Kyma X Paca on ebay (Search for Kyma X and you will find it.).
deastman
KVRAF
 
4115 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:39 pm

I just want to know what happened to Syncretia's grand experiment. Have you given up completely, or does the Symbolic journey continue?
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/4" audio patchcord
User avatar
ZenPunkHippy
KVRAF
 
10453 posts since 18 Jun, 2008, from Melbourne, Australia

Postby ZenPunkHippy; Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:49 pm

deastman wrote:I just want to know what happened to Syncretia's grand experiment. Have you given up completely, or does the Symbolic journey continue?

The first few sentences in the last Kyma blog post are quite revealing:

http://syncretia.net/wordpress/?p=89

I wonder if anything has changed?

Peace,
Andy.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4266 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:13 pm

ZenPunkHippy wrote:
deastman wrote:I just want to know what happened to Syncretia's grand experiment. Have you given up completely, or does the Symbolic journey continue?

The first few sentences in the last Kyma blog post are quite revealing:

http://syncretia.net/wordpress/?p=89

I wonder if anything has changed?

Peace,
Andy.


It is, and after reading a bit (not his blog, but some kyma papers by scaletti), what users say about Kyma makes more sense, well, that is, they still don't know how to describe what Kyma is, but at least "I" understand why they are saying what they are saying, even if it isn't particularly helpful in understanding Kyma. Everything is not a sound in Kyma, but everything is an instance of a sound object, big difference.

Kyma is to sound synthesis what Ableton is to the daw. It presents a different view on the same data. You don't need a timeline and a smalltalk based music language to delay the playback of samples, but those things do help with certain kinds of reuse, especially for the non-programmer sound designer. I can see why it is appealing to film sound people.

With regards to the OPs blog, it's not clear to me that Kyma is for everyone. By that, I don't mean that it's for people with certain skills or abilities, but, that I think that it's only for people with certain needs. I think that from what I've seen of the work flow it suits evolving, non repeating, soundscapes that are laborious to achieve with other tools. If your idea of ambient is microwave XT pads for 8 minutes, you probably don't need Kyma. I think too, that it seems tedious to use for the kinds of ideas where just filtering a beat is enough. So to make use of it, it seems that the balance of your work should like in the experimental realm.
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