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Your VSTi sounds analog? - OK then emulate this!

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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KVRAF
 
5983 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:00 am

IncarnateX wrote:If you do not like it around, why don't you just split? Entering a thread you do not like is kind of self-contradictory don' t you think?

The forum most def lacks a mute thread button yes
'Beware of people who dislike cats' [Irish proverb]
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KVRAF
 
15512 posts since 27 Jul, 2005, from the wilds of wanny
 

Postby thecontrolcentre; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:06 am

Numanoid wrote:
IncarnateX wrote:Tonight I am going to install sylenth one and check the preset kindly provided.

Hopefully this thread is locked by then :roll:
Why? If it pisses you off so much why are you even reading it, never mind posting.
KVRist
 
483 posts since 11 Sep, 2008, from Canada

Postby Doug B; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:11 am

IncarnateX wrote:
thecontrolcentre wrote:Calling DJ Anthony ... calling DJ Anthony ;)


Mines? Like coal-mines? Now why would you play these videos down in some mines in the first place?


Better reverb?
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KVRAF
 
5983 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:16 am

thecontrolcentre wrote:Why? If it pisses you off so much why are you even reading it, never mind posting.

Who was calling me a troll in another thread about selling french plugins second hand?

Did you have any business intervening there ?
'Beware of people who dislike cats' [Irish proverb]
KVRAF
 
7990 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:20 am

IncarnateX wrote:
hakey wrote:What do you think IncarnateX?


I think whatever you are emulating is pretty convincing. Now if someone just could do that with something that resembles snippets from my examples and tell me the name of their weapon, I would be more than happy and we could all go home. But of course this thread would die then and we would have to find another place to socialize.

Now if this really is a softsynth emulating an analog synth, why are you so sceptic about the possibility of emulating my examples, then?



Couple things... it takes you maybe a minute to post your request... It would take someone considerable # of hours to emulate a complex musical passage with plenty of knob turning. Nobody has the motive to do so.

Two, nobody will ever duplicate it exactly because there are too many variables and especially once you are turning knobs, every filter is different. And when you happen to really like a particular passage, there are various nuances that make you especially enjoy it. Even the same synth in a different configuration may not please you the same way.

I can post plentiful examples from softsynths and nobody will ever duplicate the subtle qualities that make that particular sound stand out for me.
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KVRAF
 
5983 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:23 am

IncarnateX wrote:I think whatever you are emulating is pretty convincing. Now if someone just could do that with something that resembles snippets from my examples and tell me the name of their weapon

You want the name of the plug: One Ping Only of course!
Last edited by Numanoid on Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Beware of people who dislike cats' [Irish proverb]
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KVRAF
 
2338 posts since 10 Apr, 2010, from Germany

Postby chk071; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:23 am

pdxindy wrote:Couple things... it takes you maybe a minute to post your request... It would take someone considerable # of hours to emulate a complex musical passage with plenty of knob turning. Nobody has the motive to do so.

Two, nobody will ever duplicate it exactly because there are too many variables and especially once you are turning knobs, every filter is different. And when you happen to really like a particular passage, there are various nuances that make you especially enjoy it. Even the same synth in a different configuration may not please you the same way.

I can post plentiful examples from softsynths and nobody will ever duplicate the subtle qualities that make that particular sound stand out for me.

:tu:
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KVRAF
 
7417 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany
  

Postby Ingonator; Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:39 am

pdxindy wrote:Couple things... it takes you maybe a minute to post your request... It would take someone considerable # of hours to emulate a complex musical passage with plenty of knob turning. Nobody has the motive to do so.

Two, nobody will ever duplicate it exactly because there are too many variables and especially once you are turning knobs, every filter is different. And when you happen to really like a particular passage, there are various nuances that make you especially enjoy it. Even the same synth in a different configuration may not please you the same way.

I can post plentiful examples from softsynths and nobody will ever duplicate the subtle qualities that make that particular sound stand out for me.



I agree with that. even if i would have the same synth from the video it would take some time to replicate it.

I made two audio demos with "knob tweaking" using my Moog Slim Phatty a while ago (those are raw WAv files without processing):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... ty%201.wav

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... mo%201.wav

I am quite sure it would be difficult to duplicate this exactly even when using the same synth.

The example in the OP is just not suitable for an easy replication. Reasons are that it's a sequencer sound (so you have to replicate the sequence first), second the demo seems to be processed with FXs and third there is some tweaking of knobs which changes the sound the whole time.

More suitable is a single sound (maybe longer sounds with e.g. filter sweeps) without sequencing and no external FXs added.


Here are some more videos about the Leipzig and the Leipzig S:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjWtwFpBiZw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy3cxfnjAgo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVnl8JXOZCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmAXc3dylVI


Based on the fact that the Leipzig/Leipzig s seems to use a Moog ladder filter they are not really much different from a Moog synth like e.g. the Little Phatty or Sub Phatty (except the sequencer of course).

The Leipzig oscillators seem to be limited to Saw and variable pulse waveforms while the oscillators in the Phatty could continuously be changed from Triangle to Saw to Square and to Pulse (wave modulation possible).


The Leipzig synths seem to use a typical 2 oscilator -> mixer -> low pass filter -> Amp routing with two ADSR envelopes which should be perfectly possible with e.g. U-He Diva when talking about software synths. Diva v1.3 will even include a step sequencer.




Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
"Analog vs Digital" for Blofeld
Win 7 64-bit / Live Suite 9.1.2 / Reaper 4.61 / softsynths by Waldorf, Tone2, Xils Lab, NI, others...
Motif ES 7 / Wavestation EX / Blofeld desktop / Pulse 2
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KVRAF
 
6888 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:00 am

HanafiH wrote:After thirty-five years of hearing subtractive synthesis I know with a painful ennui that there's just nothing left. There's no mystery not totally tutorialled. No lost expression waiting to be rediscovered. No sound not already made bazillions of times before. The streets all have names. The truth is all used up. Mono modular analogue has nothing to give other than unrepeatable unreproducible one-off slabs of burbling noise that convey little musical meaning, and no kind of originality that non-masochists would want to endure. It's done. It's over. It's a rich boy's lunatic asylum. The technology used is irrelevant.


Ah, see you're correct but you miss the point, I think. Just because a city's streets all have names and each house and lot an address, it doesn't mean all cities are alike or even worth living in. Detroit is not New York. The problem as I understand it, is that too much of "electronica" relies on the manipulation of technology in such a way that the end result is sound design, not music. Every time I hear most electronica tracks, especially from people like DeadMau5, I think, "Nice gear demo." The music makes me want to obtain a piece of gear or software... maybe a sample library or preset bank, but that's it. The kids, flock to the sound of a giant hypersaw filter sweep like a moth to a flame, but the flame is no art work.

It's up to us, as artists, to take that "flame" and make it into art. Easier said than done, especially when the flame is so dazzling. I remember the first time I sat down with a Korg Wavestation. I was giddy like a kid eating Twinkies and Kool-aid. "Look at me! I'm Peter Gabriel and I can barely play the keyboard!" After that initial high, it became clear that the Wavestation was so powerful that it's own capabilities could actually stand in the way of making music rather than helping you make music.

So, as I listen to the Liepzig demos, I think they do sound gorgeous (frak I 'm G.A.S.'n for one now!) and I don't think there is software that can accurately emulate it, yet, but I do believe it isn't outside the realm of possibility. But that is only half the story. In the hands of an artist it could make great music, but in the hands of a poor artist, it would be a waste. Same with software. I'd rather listen to a piece done with Synthedit freeware that had actual musical content than listen to an uninspired track done with all the best analog synths.

This is why I'll always argue with the software evangelists who say the differences don't matter. While I agree that beautiful music could be made using only software, I do not see the point of not working with the best tool you have at your disposal. A professional classical cellist isn't going to buy a budget priced student cello and say, "well most people can't hear the difference anyway." Why would a synthesist do the same? I'm a guitar player and while I don't have the best instruments in the world, I do have instruments that are expensive and considered to be in the realm of "professional" models. I don't care if my audience (oh crap, I don't have one!) can't tell that I have good gear. I can tell and I do music for myself. Note: I don't use real guitar amps. I use digital hardware that mimics them. I'm fully aware of the imperfect job it does, but it's a compromise I make that allows me to play at appropriate volumes in a condominium but get high gain power amp overloaded tones. Exact? Nope, but in the neighborhood, just the way Kixaxxe get's me in the neighborhood of the ARP AXXE. Why? Because I'm never going to buy an ARP AXXE. However, I do have a handful of modern analogs that sound fantastic and blow away software for specific kinds of sounds.

In the end though, it's up to us to make music with whatever tools we choose, but we need to separate sound design from music too, or else it doesn't matter.
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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addled muppet weed
 
33877 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass
 

Postby vurt; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:17 am

well, nothing really matters.
it will all be dust eventually.
you, me, our synths, the sun. all gone.
thats entropy for you.
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KVRAF
 
5983 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:20 am

vurt wrote:well, nothing really matters.
it will all be dust eventually.
you, me, our synths, the sun. all gone.
thats entropy for you.

No we're talking discussion :D

So do you reckon there is not enough mass so that the Universe will expand forever, instead of contracting/blowing up in infinite cycles?
'Beware of people who dislike cats' [Irish proverb]
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KVRAF
 
1790 posts since 25 Jan, 2009

Postby IncarnateX; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:20 am

Urs wrote: Well, I'm not good at hearing sequences and re-programming them, I just flung this one into Diva's sequencer. Then set up the Triple VCO with 3rd in sync to first, ran through Uhbie filter with a good amount of feedback into the mixer. For live tweaking used Env2->filter cutoff, cutoff, VCO3 volume.

I could ahve recorded ModWheel and BreathControl for the sequence, but figured I'd be quicker with LFOs on Waveform (PWM), VCO3 tune and Cutoff.

With the right sequence, step sequenced ModWheel and a bit o tweaking (VCOs drive filter too much in comparison to video), I think one could get reasonably close. Requires Diva 1.3 though, which isn't out yet.


First of all, thank you so much for taking me bloody serious on this to the extent that you actually meet my challenge. Secondly I have two questions

1. Why do you need the Uhbie filter in addition to Diva to do the emulation?
2. Why will you need Diva 1.3 to get closer?

I do not own Diva but if you go on like this you may soon have a new customer.

Cheers
Last edited by IncarnateX on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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addled muppet weed
 
33877 posts since 25 Jan, 2003, from through the looking glass
 

Postby vurt; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:23 am

IncarnateX wrote:
Urs wrote: Well, I'm not good at hearing sequences and re-programming them, I just flung this one into Diva's sequencer. Then set up the Triple VCO with 3rd in sync to first, ran through Uhbie filter with a good amount of feedback into the mixer. For live tweaking used Env2->filter cutoff, cutoff, VCO3 volume.

I could ahve recorded ModWheel and BreathControl for the sequence, but figured I'd be quicker with LFOs on Waveform (PWM), VCO3 tune and Cutoff.

With the right sequence, step sequenced ModWheel and a bit o tweaking (VCOs drive filter too much in comparison to video), I think one could get reasonably close. Requires Diva 1.3 though, which isn't out yet.


Firat of all, thank you so much for taking me bloody serious on this to the extent that you actually meet my challenge. Secondly I have to questions

1. Why do you need the Uhbie filter in addition to Diva to do the emulation?
2. Why will You need Diva 1.3 to get closer?

I do not own Diva but if you go on like this you may soon have a new customer.

Cheers


the uhbie is a forthcoming addition to diva. release 1.3.
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KVRAF
 
15512 posts since 27 Jul, 2005, from the wilds of wanny
 

Postby thecontrolcentre; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:26 am

Numanoid wrote:
thecontrolcentre wrote:Why? If it pisses you off so much why are you even reading it, never mind posting.

Who was calling me a troll in another thread about selling french plugins second hand?

Did you have any business intervening there ?
Am I calling for this thread (which you are still posting in), or any other thread to be locked because I disagree with it?

Anyway ... enough of this nonsense. Back to "digital is not analog" :hihi:
Last edited by thecontrolcentre on Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KVRAF
 
5983 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:29 am

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Numanoid wrote:
thecontrolcentre wrote:Why? If it pisses you off so much why are you even reading it, never mind posting.

Who was calling me a troll in another thread about selling french plugins second hand?

Did you have any business intervening there ?
Am I calling for this thread (which you are still posting in), or any other thread to be locked because I disagree with it?

But follow your own medicine and mind your own business then.

It seems to me you like nothing better than to poke a little in users who are already hotheaded to get some fun out of their reactions :roll:
'Beware of people who dislike cats' [Irish proverb]
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