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Polyphonic Guitar to MIDI VST/AU "MIDI Guitar"- BETA TEST

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRist
 
49 posts since 5 Dec, 2000, from Bologna, Italy
 

Postby Angelo; Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:29 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:The MIDI mono mode would work with conventional guitar pickups. It simply puts each string's note on separate MIDI channel, rather than all on the same channel as it currently does.

This allows each string to track its own pitch bend, which is really required if you want pitch bend at all. (What it's been doing up until now has, in my opinion, been a little crazy and not useful at all.)

The hard part of implementing this is figuring out which string is playing which note. But that's not as important as you might think (except in cases where you want a different sound on each string). There can only be 6 notes at a time, so if there's six MIDI channels all playing the same synth patch, it doesn't really matter which one is tracking which string/note. (It's nice to have, but they shouldn't hold off the feature trying to get to that.)

As for hex trackers, these are common in hardware. There's also many monophonic MIDI tracker products out there that would work fine for this application. MIDI-Guitar is for polyphonic tracking. If you're using one instance on each string's output, you're using it wrong.


AdmiralQuality,
You are certainly right: I misinterpreted the meaning of the mono mode. I will use Midi Guitar in polyphonic mode and, for best results, six instances of a monophonic tracker. In my opinion the string identification is fundamental and opens a lot of possibilities from a creative point of view. I used Midi Guitar as a monophonic tracker thinking that it was a step forward to the monophonic midi trackers on the market, and preliminary results seem to confirm that. I am very happy if this is not necessarily true and better results may be obtained with other products specifically designed for monophonic tracking. My suggestion aimed at opening a new possibilities and I am sure that this is of interest for many guitar players, as previous messages in this forum seem to confirm. Why not optimize the performance of Midi Guitar for monophonic tracking ? It is surely a simpler task.
Angelo
KVRAF
 
6285 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:50 am

Angelo wrote:
AdmiralQuality wrote:The MIDI mono mode would work with conventional guitar pickups. It simply puts each string's note on separate MIDI channel, rather than all on the same channel as it currently does.

This allows each string to track its own pitch bend, which is really required if you want pitch bend at all. (What it's been doing up until now has, in my opinion, been a little crazy and not useful at all.)

The hard part of implementing this is figuring out which string is playing which note. But that's not as important as you might think (except in cases where you want a different sound on each string). There can only be 6 notes at a time, so if there's six MIDI channels all playing the same synth patch, it doesn't really matter which one is tracking which string/note. (It's nice to have, but they shouldn't hold off the feature trying to get to that.)

As for hex trackers, these are common in hardware. There's also many monophonic MIDI tracker products out there that would work fine for this application. MIDI-Guitar is for polyphonic tracking. If you're using one instance on each string's output, you're using it wrong.


AdmiralQuality,
You are certainly right: I misinterpreted the meaning of the mono mode. I will use Midi Guitar in polyphonic mode and, for best results, six instances of a monophonic tracker. In my opinion the string identification is fundamental and opens a lot of possibilities from a creative point of view. I used Midi Guitar as a monophonic tracker thinking that it was a step forward to the monophonic midi trackers on the market, and preliminary results seem to confirm that. I am very happy if this is not necessarily true and better results may be obtained with other products specifically designed for monophonic tracking. My suggestion aimed at opening a new possibilities and I am sure that this is of interest for many guitar players, as previous messages in this forum seem to confirm. Why not optimize the performance of Midi Guitar for monophonic tracking ? It is surely a simpler task.
Angelo


A monophonic tracker is simpler and completely different. And as I pointed out, there's MANY examples of them to choose from already, some of them free, I believe. But the whole point of MIDI-Guitar (as I see it, anyway) is to do what was formerly considered impossible, polyphonic real-time analysis of a guitar (or maybe even other instrument) performance. This is a "holy grail" that until now has been unattainable.

But their technological accomplishment aside, it's no good unless they can nail down a practical interface paradigm -- and they seem to have very little direction in this department. So much so that I've lost interest in testing this any further until the MONO feature is added. To reiterate, it's not a strange or unusual feature, it's the way guitar was always meant to be encoded as MIDI, and the way ALL the hardware hex to MIDI converters do it. (They usually offer a "POLY" mode too, but it necessarily forgoes pitch-bend as... which string's bend are you going to use on the channel?)

I think Jam Origin did themselves a disservice by releasing this before it was fully baked. I get the feeling they're not actually guitar players and/or don't have any experience with the hardware tracking products that their software threatens to displace, so they've been adding all kinds of impractical stuff while ignoring the NECESSARY features. I hope that changes and look forward to testing it again if/when it does.
KVRer
 
7 posts since 13 Mar, 2011

Postby CREDO; Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:08 pm

A monophonic tracker is simpler and completely different. And as I pointed out, there's MANY examples of them to choose from already

I get the feeling they're not actually guitar players and/or don't have any experience with the hardware tracking products that their software threatens to displace, so they've been adding all kinds of impractical stuff while ignoring the NECESSARY features.


I realize the primary point (and genius!) of MG is polyphonic tracking, and I also share your concerns about some of the development priorities, but MG is the best mono tracker available (next to Axon hardware maybe?) and I really do hope this relatively straightforward feature finds its way into their list of priorities too.

Considering the number of 'old school' midi guitarists already familiar with the unique advantages of hexaphonic/mono tracking (isolated control of both string, fret, and even picking zones), and the growing interest in hexaphonic guitar in general, it would seem a shame not to capture this market as well wouldn't it? It could also be a vital fallback feature for anyone unable to achieve the stability or precision they're looking for (due to the much more demanding requirements of poly tracking), and this might go a long way toward building a broader base of support.

If they can actually pull off Midi Mono with accurate strings recognition though, that would be great! - it just seems unlikely - at least in the near future...
KVRAF
 
6285 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:54 pm

CREDO wrote:
A monophonic tracker is simpler and completely different. And as I pointed out, there's MANY examples of them to choose from already

I get the feeling they're not actually guitar players and/or don't have any experience with the hardware tracking products that their software threatens to displace, so they've been adding all kinds of impractical stuff while ignoring the NECESSARY features.


I realize the primary point (and genius!) of MG is polyphonic tracking, and I also share your concerns about some of the development priorities, but MG is the best mono tracker available (next to Axon hardware maybe?) and I really do hope this relatively straightforward feature finds its way into their list of priorities too.

Considering the number of 'old school' midi guitarists already familiar with the unique advantages of hexaphonic/mono tracking (isolated control of both string, fret, and even picking zones), and the growing interest in hexaphonic guitar in general, it would seem a shame not to capture this market as well wouldn't it? It could also be a vital fallback feature for anyone unable to achieve the stability or precision they're looking for (due to the much more demanding requirements of poly tracking), and this might go a long way toward building a broader base of support.

If they can actually pull off Midi Mono with accurate strings recognition though, that would be great! - it just seems unlikely - at least in the near future...


It's just a very different application.

Also, are there that many hex interfaces that actually allow you to output the separate string channels? Or do you need some kind of break out box and an audio interface with at least 6 input channels? Both of those are relatively restrictive requirements that greatly reduce the target market.

And really, there's no reason they couldn't have MIDI MONO mode working after a couple of hours of work. They already separate the strings into notes. Just put each note on its own channel and you're done. (Which string is which note can come later. Again that's only really important if you want a different instrument sound on each string.) I don't know why they didn't offer this on day one, but again I suspect it's (ironically) because they're not actually users of MIDI guitars. :shrug:
KVRist
 
49 posts since 5 Dec, 2000, from Bologna, Italy
 

Postby Angelo; Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:34 am

I am not sure that MG can now identify the string responsible for a given note. The task is not easy at all, at least without some sort of added modulation that would require an hex pickup. This could allow using one audio channel leaving to the software the task to separate the six audio signals on the basis of the modulation.
Another possibility would be to use an hex pickup with a wireless transmitter to an USB key. The software would process in parallel the six audio channels and results would be at top since optimization of the tracking is certainly much simpler with a monophonic signal. MG is very good also for monophonic tracking (very similar to Axon) and I do not see problems to parallel six MG processors optimized for mono tracking. This does not mean that the original project makes no sense. It would be a low cost solution with some compromise in performance. And in this case mono mode is not first priority.
Angelo
KVRAF
 
6285 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:04 am

Angelo wrote:I am not sure that MG can now identify the string responsible for a given note. The task is not easy at all, at least without some sort of added modulation that would require an hex pickup. This could allow using one audio channel leaving to the software the task to separate the six audio signals on the basis of the modulation.

The point I keep making is that it doesn't really have to. (At least not for the usual case of playing the same sound from all strings.)


Another possibility would be to use an hex pickup with a wireless transmitter to an USB key. The software would process in parallel the six audio channels and results would be at top since optimization of the tracking is certainly much simpler with a monophonic signal. MG is very good also for monophonic tracking (very similar to Axon) and I do not see problems to parallel six MG processors optimized for mono tracking. This does not mean that the original project makes no sense. It would be a low cost solution with some compromise in performance. And in this case mono mode is not first priority.
Angelo


:?

Why not just use a hex pickup and a Roland GR or Axon converter?

And, a wireless hex transmitter to a USB key? They can't even do Bluetooth audio of a simple stereo signal without a badly lossy compression! Let's remain in reality here, please.
KVRist
 
85 posts since 5 Jan, 2013, from Exeter, Devon UK
 

Postby Daggilarr; Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:18 am

As far as I am aware JamOrigin are attempting to develop a "hardware free" solution, and so far they appear to have made considerable progress.

Of course there are hex pickup based systems as well as ghost system pickups as built into Brian moor guitars or Godin's. There is also the new system from Fishman, the TriplePlay. So if you wish to spend £300 to £3000 kitting yourself out with such a system go for it, but I fail to see how these alternatives are relevant to this thread other than to observe relative performance.

For my part what do I want from MidiGuitar?

To be able to just plug in my guitar and add synth sounds
To be able to just plug in my bass guitar and add synth sounds
To be able to just plug in my alternately tuned guitar and add synth sounds
Not to have to adapt my playing style greatly
Not to have to spend hours "fine tuning" stuff

I feel that MG have been adding "extras" rather than focusing on the core issues

Problems that bug me with MG

Ghost notes
Missing notes from chords, especially where a note is repeated
Expressiveness

I don't care about tuners, arpeggiators, or any other add-ons. Get the basics right.
KVRAF
 
6285 posts since 10 Oct, 2005, from Toronto, Canada
 

Postby AdmiralQuality; Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:40 am

Daggilarr wrote:Of course there are hex pickup based systems as well as ghost system pickups as built into Brian moor guitars or Godin's. There is also the new system from Fishman, the TriplePlay. So if you wish to spend £300 to £3000 kitting yourself out with such a system go for it, but I fail to see how these alternatives are relevant to this thread other than to observe relative performance.


Exactly. Their target demographic is people with a guitar and an audio interface (which is just about any guitarist who own a computer). Not the much smaller group of people who've invested hundreds in traditional MIDI guitar converter gear. They're not going to bend over backwards to support some odd combination of gear.
KVRer
 
1 post since 16 Feb, 2013, from Breda NL

Postby zwoert; Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:17 am

AdmiralQuality wrote:Exactly. Their target demographic is people with a guitar and an audio interface (which is just about any guitarist who own a computer). Not the much smaller group of people who've invested hundreds in traditional MIDI guitar converter gear. They're not going to bend over backwards to support some odd combination of gear.


Must say it isn't much worse than my Axon or my FTP, prob. my sloppy playing though. I will sell my Axon AX100 if it gets better.
KVRist
 
30 posts since 13 Feb, 2011

Postby copacetic; Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:41 pm

Any updates on the horizon? :)
KVRist
 
152 posts since 10 Jul, 2012

Postby JamOrigin; Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:07 am

copacetic wrote:Any updates on the horizon? :)


Yes, we hope to have the release for you all by tonight.

Please let me get back with answers to other posts shorty...

EDIT: We didn't quite finish the build today - so tomorrow will be.. Sorry for the delay.
JamOrigin.com

Like us on Facebook.com/JamOrigin and follow us on Twitter @JamOrigin
KVRist
 
152 posts since 10 Jul, 2012

Postby JamOrigin; Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:55 am

MIDI Guitar 0.9 beta released!

We're happy to announce that BETA version 0.9.0 is ready for testing. The update is almost entirely devoted to tracking improvements, and as always we need your feedback. We expect a few 0.9.x releases with further tracking improvements but are currently held back a bit by CPU usage constraints that we have solve first. Its not a promise, but we certainly look forward for further investigations.

WHAT'S NEW IN 0.9.0:
    Major tracking improvements (generally more responsive and improved latency). Also fixed some tracking issues at buffer sizes smaller than 5.8ms (bug in 0.7, 0.8 )

    Support for drop D/D# tunings.

    Built in interactive help system and documentation.

    Smaller binary file sizes.

    New "Dynamics" MIDI Machine for dynamics automation

    Fix: No longer sends out MIDI CC-119 streams
    Fix: Various minor fixes

ATTENTION:
    We discovered that all versions 0.7.x and 0.8.x has a bug which will overwrite recognition presets (including the default ones) with a uniform/flat pitch sensitivity iff those presets have been originally created with another version of MIDI Guitar. This typically has bad impact on tracking. It is now corrected in 0.9 and forward but please delete or revisit your old recognition presets. Also make sure you try each of the three default presets again to find the best setup for your guitar.

    Also, versions 0.7 - 0.8 have had a problem where buffers smaller than 256 at 44.1Kh would degrade quality tracking considerably. This is fixed in 0.9.


HOW TO DOWNLOAD:

We typically have hosting/speed problems during releases due to high traffic. We are currently improving our hosting plan but its not yet ready, so please be patient or try again in a day or two when the dust have settled.

Please try first the download mirror at google:

Win: https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B6wnqsfOPgF1X3NNY2ZON2RKczg&export=download

Mac: https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B6wnqsfOPgF1aVprWXB4aEJ6bVU&export=download

and if not - try the official:
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/MIDI-Guitar-0.9.0-Win.zip
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/MIDI-Guitar-0.9.0-Mac.zip


Please consider to subscribe to news on our website to keep oriented about updates.
JamOrigin.com

Like us on Facebook.com/JamOrigin and follow us on Twitter @JamOrigin
KVRer
 
19 posts since 7 Jul, 2012

Postby CurryPaste; Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:25 pm

Congrats. I played the new version all night and it's a remarkable update.

Is seems more responsive indeed and legato runs, hammers, pulloffs, slides etc register perfectly now. The sustain of this thing is uncanny. I pick a note and let it ring until I cant hear it anymore. Then bend and wait a little longer, then release. MG tracks it aaaall the way. I also found chords slightly tighter although I cant really put my finger on it. Perhaps its due to slightly improved latency? Drop-D tuning adds a little latency over E but I guess thats simply physics.

Again, Congrats. Remarkable achievement.
KVRist
 
76 posts since 13 May, 2011

Postby Lemmy Koopa; Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:37 am

Thank you for this innovational technology/software. It's amazing, and I'm glad you've improved tracking. It was having some trouble with some notes I played, not really detecting that I was playing the note.

This is an amazing alternative to shelling out nearly 1k USD for a special pickup and a guitar synth pedal.

As cool as existing guitar-to-midi stuff was, it always was sad not being able to have polyphony. I understand that takes extensive programming of special algorithms to monitor the input, but now with this, we finally have that possibility. Technology like this are great breakthroughs.
Keep up the good work!
KVRist
 
30 posts since 20 Sep, 2006

Postby tony_12345; Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:49 am

Just downloaded and will report back later today.

Thanks for the heads up regarding tracking bugs in the previous versions. I thought it was just me, but tracking was bad after version 0.5. Hopefully version 0.9 corrects this.
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