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One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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KVRAF
 
1561 posts since 17 Apr, 2001, from At the boundaries of time

Postby crimsonwarlock; Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:29 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

bjporter wrote:That sounds yucky

Exactly my point :D
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin

Using: Reaper and loads of freeware plugins
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KVRAF
 
3910 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
 

Postby V'ger; Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:33 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

I can see not allowing sampling of a single bassdrum sound or other single sounds might seem a lot to do about nothing, especially if it means going through hoops compared to normal production, but the point remains that sampling has from day one been a sensitive issue here in OSC and not even allowed at all to begin with as the fear was that it could soon involve into a one sampling challenge.. That's why the rules has always been strict especially as it turned out the fears about samplers came true when people were using them to get a different sounding result outside of what the synth could do, hence the rule.

The majority will decide on this again, but if the rule remains you could try this ready made note-to-channel track template for Reaper here, and then on the bassdrum channel (and others) just put a sampler playing the sound until it's time to render the final song when you switch back to the synth again. I realize working with dedicated drum samplers like Softdrum LTD etc might be more comfortable if that's your normal procedure, but it would still mean creating and then sampling all necessary sounds anyway so not many steps off, especially if you would have to resample every time you tweak the sound. But if CPU cycles are scarce, sampling or rendering is of course a necessity..
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KVRian
 
1460 posts since 22 Aug, 2006, from New York
    

Postby satYatunes; Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:02 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

I am also not in favor of creating samples from the synth and using it in a drum machine or sampler. There is no fun in removing challenge from one-synth-challenge. IMO.
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KVRAF
 
1561 posts since 17 Apr, 2001, from At the boundaries of time

Postby crimsonwarlock; Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:48 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

V'ger wrote:I can see not allowing sampling of a single bassdrum sound or other single sounds might seem a lot to do about nothing, especially if it means going through hoops compared to normal production, but the point remains that sampling has from day one been a sensitive issue here in OSC and not even allowed at all to begin with as the fear was that it could soon involve into a one sampling challenge.. That's why the rules has always been strict especially as it turned out the fears about samplers came true when people were using them to get a different sounding result outside of what the synth could do, hence the rule.

The rule could simply be stating that you can only use samples that have a straight synth-patch as origin and all other rules regarding changing the sound of the synth are also in effect for such samples. That way making drum-samples would be the same as bouncing a channel and would only give a workflow-advantage.

satYatunes wrote:I am also not in favor of creating samples from the synth and using it in a drum machine or sampler. There is no fun in removing challenge from one-synth-challenge. IMO.

I don't see how challenges in the workflow (as I described before) are adding to the 'fun' of the OSC. I like the challenge of creating the sounds, composing and mixing/producing. Taking down workflow issues like the one I described should add to the fun, not diminish it.

All tmo of course ;)
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin

Using: Reaper and loads of freeware plugins
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KVRian
 
942 posts since 13 Sep, 2012

Postby idfpower; Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:40 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Someone could use drum samples created with the OSC synth...or not. The source may be another synth and you can't verify since the sample is a wav file. Besides, so what if for ex your kick drum sound is not consistent throughout the entire track? It's how that synth works and sounds. That's the whole point: following a number of rules and finding solutions to get over the instrument's limitations.

I admit at first this frustrated the hell out of me. But I got used to it and I don't care anymore if the drums in my track are not top hit quality. In fact my workflow changed due to my (brief) OSC experience ;)
telurica.eu5.org
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KVRAF
 
1561 posts since 17 Apr, 2001, from At the boundaries of time

Postby crimsonwarlock; Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:33 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

idfpower wrote:Someone could use drum samples created with the OSC synth...or not. The source may be another synth and you can't verify since the sample is a wav file.

Of course you can verify; if you use a sampled drum-sound you should have a synth-patch that generates that exact drum sound. I see no problem in verification there.

idfpower wrote:Besides, so what if for ex your kick drum sound is not consistent throughout the entire track? It's how that synth works and sounds. That's the whole point: following a number of rules and finding solutions to get over the instrument's limitations.

But I was not talking about getting solutions for the synth's limitations, it's purely a workflow issue and has nothing to do with what the synth can or can not do.

My whole point in this is that using samples for drums, under the rule I suggested, has no bearing at all on the capabilities and/or limitations of the synth used. Not being allowed to use sampled drum-sounds (from the actual synth) is severely restricting in workflow (taking away from 'fun' time for composing and sound-design) while giving the opportunity to use sampled drum-sounds (again, from the actual synth) does not give any obvious advantage in the area of composition and sound-design. So I fail to see the actual validity in this current rule.

The other thing is, that (I guess) most participants are 'programming' their drum tracks as opposed to actually 'playing' them. So for those it might not be a problem, but it forgoes the simple fact that it does pose a problem for those (like me) who are actually playing the parts. I have done only one OSC so far, and this issue is the main reason I've not dived in head first in other OSC so far. It really keeps my inspiration down, thinking about the process to get that sweet drum-track I hear in my head, into the DAW the way I described before :?
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin

Using: Reaper and loads of freeware plugins
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KVRian
 
942 posts since 13 Sep, 2012

Postby idfpower; Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:35 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

crimsonwarlock wrote:The other thing is, that (I guess) most participants are 'programming' their drum tracks as opposed to actually 'playing' them.


Oh, I see now what the problem is...indeed, for that kind of workflow it's a problematic issue. Hm, never thought of that... But don't most newer DAWs have some sort of Piano roll implemented, or smth?
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KVRist
 
161 posts since 13 Jan, 2013, from United States
 

Postby ontrackp; Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:55 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

satYatunes wrote:I am also not in favor of creating samples from the synth and using it in a drum machine or sampler. There is no fun in removing challenge from one-synth-challenge. IMO.


I agree with this. I've enjoyed the OSC's because they are "pure". It is a wonderful, simple concept -- use one synth for everything. Even if you just sample and don't change the sound, you are still taking it out of the synth and playing it back from another instrument.

Re: using previous compositions.
There have been threads about how how to grade songs -- is it sound design, composition, production, etc...??? I think it's the combination of all of those things that make this competition so exciting. I think removing any aspect of originality or creative approach from the requirement would diminish the OSC. Requiring original composition also keeps the playing field even -- more experienced composers with a large back library of compositions would have an unfair advantage if we could just go back and pick up something we've produced before.
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KVRAF
 
3910 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
 

Postby V'ger; Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:36 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Did you try the track template I linked to Crimson? It will allow you to play the keyboard like you describe as all is on one track. It's the one I use myself and i do a mix of both playing and writing.
KVRist
 
132 posts since 18 Jul, 2011
    

Postby chilledpanda; Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:37 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

crimsonwarlock wrote:
bjporter wrote:That does seem cumbersome, but then again I start my project from scratch every month. Each month it gets faster and faster which is nice.

Maybe I need to elaborate: it means I need to setup a midi-track that splits specific notes into separate midi-channels that I then need to route to the different tracks holding the separate drum-sounds. It means at least the use of some midi-zoning plugin. That simply IS cumbersome. However, I could probably setup a track-template for that in Reaper, but yet again that seems to me as a lot of work related to DAW-organization instead of composing, and it takes the fun out of it (for me at least). It goes pretty closely with my personal need to be able to setup a controller-template for a OSC-synth, to actually see myself participate in the first place.

If you know of a simpler way to do it (in Reaper), I surely like to know ;)

Sounds fiddly doing the filtering on one midi track. Why not approach it from the opposite end, simplistic approach. e.g. Route the midi track to all tracks and then filter the midi note on each synth track, e.g. only allow the note or range you want via JS midi note filter vst you can add that before the synth.
And the nice thing about reaper you can save each as a track template, which is handy dandy if you always use the same mapping. Adding a new drum track would take 10-20 secs seconds even with no template, insert new vst track (selecting synth), add midi note filter before synth and set its note settings, route midi to track. Pretty easy in Reaper.
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KVRAF
 
1561 posts since 17 Apr, 2001, from At the boundaries of time

Postby crimsonwarlock; Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:55 am Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

V'ger wrote:Did you try the track template I linked to Crimson? It will allow you to play the keyboard like you describe as all is on one track. It's the one I use myself and i do a mix of both playing and writing.

Not yet, as I'm now contemplating if I'm actually want to go through these hoops to be able to participate in the OSC. As everyone here keeps mentioning, it's about having fun, and I'm feeling that needing to use fiddly workflow solutions take away a lot of that 'fun' for me.

Maybe the OSC just isn't for me. I'm mainly doing progrock stuff and it's becomming clear to me that the OSC might not be 'thing' for that.

chilledpanda wrote:Sounds fiddly doing the filtering on one midi track. Why not approach it from the opposite end, simplistic approach. e.g. Route the midi track to all tracks and then filter the midi note on each synth track, e.g. only allow the note or range you want via JS midi note filter vst you can add that before the synth.
And the nice thing about reaper you can save each as a track template, which is handy dandy if you always use the same mapping. Adding a new drum track would take 10-20 secs seconds even with no template, insert new vst track (selecting synth), add midi note filter before synth and set its note settings, route midi to track. Pretty easy in Reaper.

It doesn't matter from what side you approach it, it involves setting up track-templates (to have at least some efficiency) and using midi-plugins to do some filtering and/or routing. I like to build a serious drum-kit for a track, so that adds to the work involved.

Still, I haven't seen any good argument against my suggestion of sampling drum sounds with my proposed restrictions. Stating it takes away from the fun doesn't make sense if it's not mentioned how or why it would take away that. Same goes for the mentioning of some sort of advantage that would be gained from sampling drums from the synth, while there has no mention so far as to HOW that advantage would play out.

I'm feeling I'm up against the chorus here, but so far I've seen no actual argument against my suggestion, only opinions without any real explanation.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin

Using: Reaper and loads of freeware plugins
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KVRAF
 
3910 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
 

Postby V'ger; Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:31 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

The argument against is obviously that sampling might give a different sounding result than the synth would do on its own with non-synced oscillators for example.

I can understand everyone has their preferred workflow etc, but it remains to be seen if the majority is willing to let the synth's limitation be bypassed for other's workflow comfort or give up their own by being forced to use samplers too in order to get the same advantage.

I personally suggest that with a note-to-channel track template (2 seconds to load) in Reaper the workflow might not be compromised at all and possibly even enhanced compared to the 'edit synth + sample + load-into-sampler (and repeat)' you are doing at the moment with Softdrum since you can have both synth, sampler or even audio on the same track and all coming from a single MIDI track. You could even hide the individual drum tracks from the track view to make it neat, and with a drum sampler you would still have a bunch of out tracks in the mixer anyway.

As for OSC being for you it would seem so from the outside as it's mostly about freeware plugins and getting your hands dirty digging into the synth etc, and with your freeware-only philosophy the winning of commercial prizes would hold little attraction. There might be something to the fact that certain musical styles are more popular than others and reflected in the votes, but in my opinion a good mix (good sounds+good effects usage) counts for just as much if not more than style, and besides it's also a community as much as a competition.

Let's just wait for the vote to see what everyone thinks about changing the rule as suggested first.
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KVRAF
 
3910 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
 

Postby V'ger; Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:00 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

Here's a short video of the note-to-MIDI channel drum set up in Reaper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFPVcorvIA
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KVRAF
 
1561 posts since 17 Apr, 2001, from At the boundaries of time

Postby crimsonwarlock; Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:15 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

V'ger wrote:The argument against is obviously that sampling might give a different sounding result than the synth would do on its own with non-synced oscillators for example.

That holds true for sounds that are long enough to actual notice such an effect within an mixed track but I'm pretty sure it is negligible for short sounds (i.e. drum sounds).

V'ger wrote:I can understand everyone has their preferred workflow etc, but it remains to be seen if the majority is willing to let the synth's limitation be bypassed for other's workflow comfort or give up their own by being forced to use samplers too in order to get the same advantage.

Again, I don't agree with the way this is stated here; there simply is no advantage, I don't see how using samples for the drum track is having any effect on the quality of the composition, sound design or whatever. It's a workflow issue, nothing more.

V'ger wrote:As for OSC being for you it would seem so from the outside as it's mostly about freeware plugins and getting your hands dirty digging into the synth etc, and with your freeware-only philosophy the winning of commercial prizes would hold little attraction.

I think it's pretty clear I'm not in it for the prizes ;)

V'ger wrote:Let's just wait for the vote to see what everyone thinks about changing the rule as suggested first.

Of course the vote will decide. However, I'm not holding my breath as it is clear that most participants are simply not working this way and are not tracking live performances. So I don't see (so far) other participants showing any understanding of this issue.

For me this was already a point of contemplation to decide if I'm going to participate in subsequent OSC. Seeing the vote gave me an opportunity to sway this rule into something more workable. So far I don't see it happen.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin

Using: Reaper and loads of freeware plugins
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KVRAF
 
3910 posts since 15 Dec, 2009
 

Postby V'ger; Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:30 pm Re: One-Synth-Challenge: General discussion thread

crimsonwarlock wrote:That holds true for sounds that are long enough to actual notice such an effect within an mixed track but I'm pretty sure it is negligible for short sounds (i.e. drum sounds).

In my opinion it is particularly noticeable for bassdrum as the varying transients of free running oscillators on this type sound will stand out more.
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