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Obxd synthesizer

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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Kriminal
KVRAF
 
18397 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from England

Postby Kriminal; Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:41 pm Re: Obxd synthesizer

Ingonator wrote: A 3 Pole filter could be helpful for my "Acid" Bass patches
Have checked with help of a Signal Analyzer. The minimum knob positions seems to correspond to 24dB, the maximum to 6dB and the middle position to the 12 dB filter. based on that the 18 dB should be between the minimum and the middle.




Ingo



its a myth the 303 used an 18dB filter, it uses a 24dB filter. So you dont need a 3 pole filter in OBDX to create 'acid' patches.
Breeze
KVRAF
 
1611 posts since 13 Oct, 2002

Postby Breeze; Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:00 pm Re: Obxd synthesizer

Hmm... it appears the newest version from today may require some changes for some patches if the patch was saved with the Multimode at anything but 0. Some of mine were that way, so without further ado, here is rev2a of my bank with these corrections! (Sorry Ingo!!):

Breeze_Meat-n-Potatoes_Obxd-Bank-rev2a

(Again, same archive name, different content marked "rev2a")

Basically any existing patches set a 24 dB currently, should have their Multimode set at 0. However, on a few of these patches changing the slope of the Filter sounded a bit better... ;)

Ingonator wrote:I guess i have just found the difference in the patches with ethe old and new version. I check an Unison Lead and with the old version it seems to sound more detuned. Increasing the Spread in the latest version seems to fix it. In patches without Unison i hardly found any difference yet.

You may not notice it so much in Unison patches, but the old Spread definitely detunes OSC2 up as much as a semitone more than the new when fully clockwise. So an adjustment of Spread AND Detune is often required.
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syntheticillusion
KVRist
 
150 posts since 8 Jan, 2011, from Welland, Ontario, Canada

Postby syntheticillusion; Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:03 pm Re: Obxd synthesizer

I would like to send my presets for the community bank and make the fold say Joel Bisson, which is my name not syntheticillusion, I made a nice Brass Preset and some Basses but I'm not ready yet to send them but i will be monday, maybe someone could use this synth in the OSC this month since any one synth is what could be used, i have more synapse audio DUNE-BE presets but that would be cool to use for KVR-OSC-60 AnySynth Competition, I wish I had time to write for last month since Kubik was what I wanted to win, except I don't think people will like my music or comment on it, This OXBD is the best synth yet, I heard Zero Delay Filters, Which is nice if i knew what that was, I like that you can make sounds right away because the patch is init when you start it up and then you press the next preset button in your daw, mine is FL, and you get to save a bank in this manner.
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
8978 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:03 pm Re: Obxd synthesizer

Kriminal wrote:its a myth the 303 used an 18dB filter, it uses a 24dB filter. So you dont need a 3 pole filter in OBDX to create 'acid' patches.


The first pole of the filter is with a capacitor at 54% the value of the other poles.

Edited away rest of post because to be honest I don't want to get into the technicalities of the whole thing.

Suffice it to say I agree the difference is negligible, but the filter is obviously not a plain old four pole filter.
Kriminal
KVRAF
 
18397 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from England

Postby Kriminal; Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:56 pm Re: Obxd synthesizer

aciddose wrote:
Kriminal wrote:its a myth the 303 used an 18dB filter, it uses a 24dB filter. So you dont need a 3 pole filter in OBDX to create 'acid' patches.


The first pole of the filter is with a capacitor at 54% the value of the other poles.

Edited away rest of post because to be honest I don't want to get into the technicalities of the whole thing.

Suffice it to say I agree the difference is negligible, but the filter is obviously not a plain old four pole filter.


But its still a 4 pole....and its diff to the obie filter anyway, so setting this one to 18dB wont get you any closer :wink:
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
8978 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:13 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

No, not by far. People seem to obsess over the filter claiming they can hear a difference while in reality the difference is in both the pulse circuit and both the VCA and mixer in the signal path adding significant amounts of distortion, mostly symmetrical for VCA, mostly even for mixer.

Not to mention the accent circuit which takes mostly the accent pulse directly with resonance minimum while increasing the decay time of the accent by 50%. That little bit makes a significant difference. People need to actually buy a x0xbox or real tb-303 and make some comparisons with external CV/gate control, without accent. The accent is a big factor, much more significant than the distortion from the VCA/mixer.
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
7873 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:42 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

Just did a test and noticed that the Resonance with the 24dB filter off has a much bigger effect than with the variable filter at 24dB. Those two filters seem to be quite different, even at a comparable filter slope.
While the new variable filter does not sound bad for a maximum amount of Resonance the "old" 12 dB filter seems to be better.
Anyway replicating a 303 like sound the new variable filter seems to be better as the Resonance in the other one seems to be too much.

PS:
About the dicussion above: I got D16 Phoscyon and Venom VB303 for comparison.
Of course i know about the accent of the 303 and for direct comparsisons i try to switch the accent off. Of course there are still differences as the 303 is quite special but it is possible to come at least close to the typical "squelchy" sound.

I never ,mentioned that OBXD could replicate that sound 100%
It's funny how mentioning the 18dB filter here could start such discussions. Anyway setting the slope below 24 dB (with the new filter in OBXD setting the slopes is continuous) IMO seems to get closer to that character (and if you don't hear it you could measure the difference with a Signal Analyzer).


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
8978 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:39 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

Ingonator wrote:Anyway setting the slope below 24 dB (with the new filter in OBXD setting the slopes is continuous) IMO seems to get closer to that character (and if you don't gear it you could measure the difference with a Signal Analyzer)


That would be coincidence.

Measurement of the actual filter will show that the effect is limited to shifting the peak to a higher frequency. At the point the capacitor is modified it doesn't significantly affect the slope. It is 1/2, 1/10th has a more significant effect.

Still, it will undeniably have effects but the question as to whether it is audible or not? Unlikely. In fact it is exceptionally difficult to measure any difference at all.

People have done comparisons between the filter with all four caps of the same value vs. the 1/2 first stage. I haven't seen anyone reporting an audible difference.
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
7873 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:40 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

aciddose wrote:The first pole of the filter is with a capacitor at 54% the value of the other poles.


Could find the same here:
http://www.timstinchcombe.co.uk/index.php?pge=diode

Also found this (at GS):

The TB-303 filter is actually a flawed 24dB/oct design, making it more like a 18dB/oct filter. It is a unique 4 pole diode ladder filter (the diode ladder was an invention of Bob Moog’s) which uses transistors instead of diodes which gives the response of a 3 pole filter.


To emulate it, try using four 6dB/oct filters with slightly different tuning on the first pole. It's the mismatching of the filter elements that prevents it from self oscillating. The phase shift doesn't get to 360 degrees. Check the schematic: http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufa...03.schem-5.gif - the C18 cap is about half the value of the rest of the capacitors in the ladder.


I guess that the conclusion is that technically it should be a 24dB filter while due to some specific design the resulting output is closer to a 18 dB filter.
This means that the reality is somwhere between those two.

Anyway this is not the topic of this thread so i think best is to stop that specific discussion here.


Ingo
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
"Analog vs Digital" for Blofeld
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aciddose
KVRAF
 
8978 posts since 7 Dec, 2004, from Vancouver, Canada

Postby aciddose; Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:48 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

The resulting output is actually 24db slope, it is just shifted slightly higher in frequency. The 1/2 difference isn't enough to affect anything audible.
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
7873 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:02 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

aciddose wrote:The resulting output is actually 24db slope, it is just shifted slightly higher in frequency. The 1/2 difference isn't enough to affect anything audible.


Regardless any 303 comparisons when using the new variable filter slope in OBXD i COULD hear a difference when moving the knob towards a less steep slope. What you could hear is a slightly higher amount of high frequencies (which actually is one of the effects of lowering the number of filter poles). While turning that knob on OBXD i also see the outpout at a Signal Analyzer changing accordingly. The difference from the 24dB setting to the 6dB one is around 12-13 kHz (of course the resonant peak stays at the same position but it's amplitude will be slightly increased). With the "Multi" knob (which controls the poles) at around 25% the difference is already around 2 kHz (compared to the 24dB setting) and around 4 kHz at 50%. Resonance or no resonance makes no difference in the audible difference even at 25% knob setting.
When comparing directly ro D16 Phosycon setting OBXD to around 18 dB seems to be a better choice than 24 dB.

For "acid" like patches in OBXD i'll prefer a slope closer to 18 dB. I'll keep my two old patches at the 12 dB filter (24 dB switch off) but already created a new one based on the new adjustable filter.


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
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Numanoid
KVRAF
 
8011 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:55 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

Can't somebody add Obxd to the KVR database? I dunno if others than the dev can do that?

Those who got presets to share can then upload them to that page in the database, it's easier to find them that way.
olikana
KVRian
 
734 posts since 26 Jul, 2009

Postby olikana; Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:30 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

once 2dat has a final release I'm sure he'll upload it to the database.
I think the synth is already at a good point feature/sound wise and almost complete.
what I'd personally like as final touches :
- adjustable KT instead of just on/off
- LFO reset (there's just enough space for a button there) which would make it handy as extra modulatiion envelope or for funky vibrato .
- adjustable vibrato depth (i need a bit more for funk stabs) even though the LFO with the reset would be more than adequate for this use.
- negative polarity for filter envelope amount (very useful imo)
- there's a wrongly labelled knob in the modulatioon section. should be "amount" or "depth"" instead of "pitch" .
although really grateful with what we already have. 2dat is da man.
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Numanoid
KVRAF
 
8011 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:58 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

olikana wrote:once 2dat has a final release I'm sure he'll upload it to the database.

Don't have to have a final release to add it to the database, many synths thar are still in development are added there.

Adding a synth to the datebase doesn't mean that the file is added there, but information/presentation of the plugin with link to download (if available)
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
7873 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:36 am Re: Obxd synthesizer

olikana wrote:- there's a wrongly labelled knob in the modulatioon section. should be "amount" or "depth"" instead of "pitch" .


The knob is used for pitch modulation (= vibrato) and filter LFO modulation so renaming to "amount" or "depth" would be misleading too IMO.

Just at a look at the real OB-X and is is a bit different there.

In the first columen the is "LFO" at the top and the first knob labeled "Rate"
In the second clumn there is "Frequency" at the top and ""Depth" at the first knon.
In the third column there is "Pulse Width" on top and "Depth" at the first knob.

This means another line of text would be needed and i am not sure if this would really fit into the current GUI or if a reaarangement is necessary.


Ingo
Last edited by Ingonator on Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
"Analog vs Digital" for Blofeld
Win 7 64-bit / Live 9 / Reaper / Studio One 2.6 / Blofeld / Pulse 2 /Waldorf + Tone 2 plugins + others
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