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The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:05 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Right, I know velocity is per note, but maybe toby was asking about doing what they are doing in the video, having the parameter jump for each new note value, rather than having it affect each voice separately. Is that what you are saying can be done with every synth and daw? I'm not sure who is misunderstanding who. :?
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:02 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

I'm pretty sure you lost me completely now. :-)

Cheers,

Tom
KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:24 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Oh you know what, I was thinking that timbre was per note like velocity, so I was thinking that you could do the same thing with timbre that they were doing in the video with velocity; route it to the filter and have that respond to each new note, which maybe you could call "per note automation" like toby said. I guess that's where the confusion is coming from.

You could still sort of do the same thing though, you'd just have to create a timbre change where each note was and it the timbre of the instrument would seem to change with each new note like it does in the bitwig video.

I'm confused and not sure if I'm actually clearing anything up though. :? The main distinction I want to make though is between true polyphonic parameter stuff, for example each note/voice having its own filter cutoff, and a paramter simply changing for each new note. If toby is thinking of the former then you are right and it can't be done, but if he is thinking of the latter it is possible.
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:51 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Sounds fairly confused to me alright ;-)

Timbre IS per note like velocity, but it IS a continuous controller (variable over time), although NOT one available in the Midi specification but made up by Bitwig.
Bitwig Studio HAS per note, polyphonic automation for Timbre and Pitch.
For Bitwig factory instruments it IS one of the per-note modulators you can assign to parameters in the GUI.

But Toby tried to automate a MONOPHONIC parameter in a VST through the use of (monophonic) macros and timbre in a polyphonic way (at least that is how I read it). That will not work since the parameter in the VST has to be polyphonic internally first to allow that, which most parameters are not.

Polyphonic Aftertouch in my view is the closest thing to Timbre in the Midi specification.
The Controller API already contains a PA to timbre command, I just can't get it to work yet (Justin, would you know how to do that?).

What I want to see is a simple way to route the internal BWS polyphonic automation to 2.x VSTs without first waiting for VST 3.5 being implemented. And PA would allow for that.

Phew - any clearer or even more confused?

Cheers,

Tom
KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:22 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Ok, that clears it up. I was thinking that timbre was just a one shot per note value like velocity; I managed to miss that in bws it works the same as the per note pitch.
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:38 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Yeah, you are right. But it isn't the same Timbre it seems - BWS doesn't react to CC 71 and as you say, it's not polyphonic anyway. I guess that will create quite some confusion ;-)

Cheers,

Tom
KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:42 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Aw crap, I edited to try to be more concise. Sorry. It's all good now though.
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:49 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

No, you made a good point. If there is a Timbre parameter in the Midi Specs (which I didn't realize) and BWS uses the same name for something different, that will create confusion.

Cheers,

Tom
KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:08 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Actually now that I watch that video again I realize that the main thing that messed me up is that timbre is displayed exactly the same as velocity in the note expression lane in BWS. So I assumed it was the same kind of thing as velocity, which afaik is not continuous; all I know of is velocity and release velocity per note. Or am I wrong in thinking velocity isn't continuous? Aftertouch is meant to play the part of continuous velocity, right?
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:31 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

LOL

- Velocity isn't continuous but a single value between 0 and 127 that is part of the Note-On message in Midi together with the pitch - How hard/fast did you hit the key. The same for release velocity (but that isn't really used much and usually is set to 0) which would be how fast you let the key go.

- Aftertouch isn't "meant to play the part...", it's an additional controller like the mod wheel, that you can use to modify your sound.
Velocity is available as part of the note-on message, so it's there right away when you hit the key while AT is used to modulate your tone afterwards, whenever you feel like pressing down some more on that already pressed key.
The difference between Channel-/Monophonic AT and Key-/Polyphonic AT is, that the first modifies all sounding notes and therefore works the exact same as for instance a mod wheel.
Poly AT on the other hand can address each note separately (although I guess it can't differentiate between several sounding notes of the same pitch, which BWS note expression should be able to do - didn't try that yet).

As for the video: as long as you don't edit it further, timbre indeed looks exactly the same, with one keyframe at the start of the line.
But Timbre can be further edited and keyframes can be added, to get continuous change over the life of a note...

Cheers,

Tom
KVRAF
 
3444 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:54 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Ok here's an easy one: Curious about the FM synth. Looking at the screenshots I don't see different wave shapes. Are there? Or is it just a basic sine fm synth?

cheers!
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.
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KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:05 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

Echoes in the Attic wrote:Ok here's an easy one: Curious about the FM synth. Looking at the screenshots I don't see different wave shapes. Are there? Or is it just a basic sine fm synth?

cheers!


I think it just has sine waves. As far as I know other waves are just built out of those anyway. It does have other shapes in its LFO.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
KVRAF
 
7985 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from in the wilds
 

Postby pdxindy; Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:54 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

ThomasHelzle wrote:
Phew - any clearer or even more confused?

Cheers,

Tom


Shoulda just stuck with my concise 'no'... hehehe'

Seriously... I like your idea of trying to make use of the existing PolyAT (which most synths support these days)
KVRian
 
907 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:27 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

@Thomas. Thanks. I thought so about velocity, just making sure i wasn't missing some spec. About aftertouch, yeah I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that. I knew that it could be connected to anything but the fact that it has to do with applying pressure to the keys groups it with velocity in my mind. And I I believe I've seen plenty of demos of people using it to control the envelope of a sound manually like a string instrument.

@px Yeah it's a big bunch of mostly useless text but at least I learned something.
KVRian
 
1401 posts since 9 Dec, 2008, from Berlin
 

Postby ThomasHelzle; Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:34 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation T

pdxindy wrote:
ThomasHelzle wrote:
Phew - any clearer or even more confused?

Cheers,

Tom


Shoulda just stuck with my concise 'no'... hehehe'

Seriously... I like your idea of trying to make use of the existing PolyAT (which most synths support these days)


Yeah, I guess so ;-)
But I always enjoy to untangle some of the confusion that surrounds technical stuff :party:

As for PA support: yeah, I hope there will be easy translation fore and back between timbre and PA at one point in the future - it would be a bit nutty to have the possibility and a great GUI for it and then being unable to actually play and record it, or have it only for factory syths... ;-)

Fingers crossed....

Cheers,

Tom
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