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The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRian
 
1315 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Postby samsam; Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:48 pm Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Ogopogo wrote:Could someone explain to me what the issue with warping being "always on" in Live is? We had some nice info about Live's latency compensation problem but the other thing that I always hear about Live is some of the sound quality complains are due to warping being on as a default and people not realizing it. Does that mean that if you record some audio it is still being messed with even if you don't stretch it? If so, why would they design it that way?


Warping is no issue at all for me, a Live user.It's actually a great feature. The manual is a great place to find out how stuff works, if you're interested.

Oh, and why would Ableton design something to be as stupid as you described? (hint: they didn't).
KVRian
 
1164 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:02 pm Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

I know what warping is, and I'm thinking that this issue might not be in the manual, but I'll check. But with just a little googling around I'm finding several people claiming that the "complex pro" warping mode creates artifacts even at the original tempo: https://www.ableton.com/answers/what-s- ... ull-tracks
KVRian
 
1315 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Postby samsam; Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:23 pm Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

U we're talking about defaults. Default mode is Beats. No problems there unless you start adjusting stuff
KVRian
 
1164 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:58 pm Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

^Ok. Well I'm looking in the manual now and it seems maybe "auto-warp" is what I've heard people saying needs to be turned off. Does this automatically stretch files that you import or something?
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KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:05 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
spinlud wrote:
lesha wrote:
kennyda wrote:I just did a test running 40 audio tracks in Live and Bitwig Studio. In Live my computer was running at about 60-75% CPU, and in Bitwig it was about 25-50%, repeated test, same sort of result. These sort of tests do vary a lot but I did repeat it once and checked nothing else was running except routine background stuff so I think it's reasonably useful.

How about VSTs?


I can't believe that he is getting 60-75% of cpu in ableton with only 40 tracks without any vst...


Without knowing what warping method is being used, it doesn't mean much. If the high quality time stretch is on, which it might be by default, then that can eat up cpu.


They were both loops dragged out in the timeline, so they would be the normal stretch.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
KVRian
 
1315 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Postby samsam; Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:21 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

And I take back what I said before about devs not being so stupid with their default choices. It seems that for some people at least the default choice in Live is the 'fade in samples' or whatever it's called.

Always gets noobs posting on the Ableton forum saying 'why doesn't my kick sound the same as the preview?'.
KVRian
 
1164 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:33 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

kennyda wrote:They were both loops dragged out in the timeline, so they would be the normal stretch.
I would think that warping should be left out of a scientific comparison. It's kind of like using the included devices instead of the same vst on both daws. If, for example, Live's default warping is higher quality than Bitwig's, It doesn't mean much to say that bitwig is using less cpu.
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KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:29 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Ok I'll try without warping later.

I just tried a test, not exactly like-for-like, but close. I loaded 8 tracks in each DAW, with a Simpler in Live and a Sampler in Bitwig Studio, each playing a percussion sample, and stuck a Reverberate and an Apqualizr at the end. This time I just read the overall CPU on the Mac. Both came out about the same (about 50%).

This time I set the buffer the same in both DAWs, as I think it was lower in BS last time.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
User avatar
KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:48 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Just did one with 30 tracks, unwarped, in both DAWS. Both played fine and both used about the same CPU, around 28-35% total CPU use on the Mac.

So overall, I can't really say there is any definite difference at the moment.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
User avatar
KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:50 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Ogopogo wrote:I would think that warping should be left out of a scientific comparison.


Maybe, but then again most audio I have is looped. Ok, so I'm not comparing like with like, but I'm comparing how the DAW gets the job done. I'll try and do both anyway, but I don't have a third party sample player.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
User avatar
KVRian
 
1063 posts since 21 Jan, 2008, from The Outer Rim
 

Postby Suloo; Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:16 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

would also be interesting how your computer specs are and if it is configured properly. You can for exampel run a check with DSP latency checker to see if your driver configuration etc are proper. If they are not, that would be interesting to see wich DAW handles that better also.

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

A super system runs in idle between 30 and 100, a good system at least below 200, and has a streight green line..
KVRist
 
231 posts since 22 Aug, 2011

Postby virtualmark; Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:20 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Unfortunately the DPC latency checker doesn't support Windows 8 yet, and reports incorrect values. Although there isn't really a need to check DPC latency here, just make sure that you're using the same audio driver with the same buffer values and the results will be accurate enough.
KVRian
 
1164 posts since 1 Oct, 2013

Postby Ogopogo; Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:24 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

I see your point Kenny about using the warping.

When we were talking about performance before one thing that came up was that there might be extra code in the beta, for debugging or something, that could mean the release version would run differently. If that's still likely it might be better to just hold off on the testing for now.
User avatar
KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:27 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

I'm on a Mac, that checker won't work on it.

I just did a test, 10 tracks with Arturia MiniV playing a simple bass line. Both DAWs came out about the same, ie total COMPUTER CPU use about 35-45%.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
User avatar
KVRist
 
405 posts since 21 Mar, 2010, from Manchester UK
 

Postby kennyda; Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:29 am Re: The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

Ogopogo wrote:I see your point Kenny about using the warping.

When we were talking about performance before one thing that came up was that there might be extra code in the beta, for debugging or something, that could mean the release version would run differently. If that's still likely it might be better to just hold off on the testing for now.


Interesting, could be. I don't want to be responsible for people making their minds up anyway, I think people need to run their own tests. Also they need to bare in mind that you can do the test again and get different results.
Studio One, OS X 10.0, M-Audio Oxygen 25 keyboard.
Old websites:
http://www.bitwigtutorials.net Free Bitwig Studio tutorials
http://www.macableton.com Free Ableton Live and Mac tutorials.
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