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Eventide goes dongle free

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

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camsr
KVRAF
 
4574 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:13 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

So, why doesn't it sound like a hardware H3000?
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kmonkey
KVRAF
 
3239 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Postby kmonkey; Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:41 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

camsr wrote:So, why doesn't it sound like a hardware H3000?


I guess it's because back then they used different processors in hardware, therefore different programming language and all of the advantages and OBSTACLES which comes from that time. AD/DA converter also might have some impact on sound since it's old but quite honestly i think it's because of the way how algorithms worked back at that time. You know it's not simply copy paste DSP language from old box in new hardware.

And just to make it clear, i am not hardware purist, i do like hardware and software. I am more of opinion that they just didn't do proper job and that's all. I don't think it's impossible, surely it is possible to remake h3000 but this piece of plugin is not going to get you there...Heck even H8000 visual editor is looking somehow better and more reasonable then this adventure..

Anyway..
antithesist
KVRian
 
915 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:37 pm Re: Eventide goes dongle free

The analog sections of the hardware 3000 were designed by Dave Derr (Emperical Labs/Distressor fame) and are pretty special.

The H3000 also has a variable sample rate architecture.

Factory native is a port of the TDM version:

"I'm Dan Gillespie, the DSP engineer who did the Band Delays and Factory Plug-Ins.

Those plug-ins (actually all of our plug-ins) are not based on convolution or IR technology. They are re-written and sometimes re-created versions of the code for the same algorithms that run in the H3000. The Band Delays plug-in is a re-creation of the original algorithm whereas the Factory plug-in is an amalgam of re-creations of the H3000's Patch Factory, Mod Factory 1, and Mod Factory 2 algorithms.
[...]
Dan Gillespie
Eventide Inc."

Mod Factory was originally not even an Eventide product, as it was and add-on developed by Ken Bogdanowicz (soundtoys) for his Crescent Engineering company.

Ken did most of the programming for the 3000 when at Eventide.

After Crescent came Wave Mechanics... then soundtoys.

I bought Mod Factory from Ken B. for my original H3000.

Anyway, even my original unit had crap-ton of algorithms that I later added to... sampling option, etc.

Factory native only represents a small portion of any H3000 model.
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
deastman
KVRAF
 
4011 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:02 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

Here is a comparison between the hardware H3000 and the TDM and VST versions. The purpose of the video is to prove that there is no difference between the three, but the demo actually proves just the opposite. While listening, it seemed obvious to me that the hardware sounded better. Reading through the comments, others seem to agree.

The comparison starts a little after 3:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlMu-T8tPMQ
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/4" audio patchcord
Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
 
6362 posts since 6 Sep, 2008

Postby Mushy Mushy; Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:57 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

deastman wrote:The comparison starts a little after 3:00.

Wow, I could hear a difference even though I was only listening through my phone and headphones, and through YouTube.

That said, I do still think it sounds good. It's just the hardware is phenomenal.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
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electro
KVRAF
 
3297 posts since 5 May, 2002

Postby electro; Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:30 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

But what is the source of the difference, Algorithm or DAC?
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6471 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:17 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

electro wrote:But what is the source of the difference, Algorithm or DAC?


Both, apparently, but the DAC and analog components certainly make a huge difference. Even other Eventide hardware sound different from the H3000.
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
2852 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:02 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

electro wrote:But what is the source of the difference, Algorithm or DAC?


I haven't heard the H3000 plugin in question, so I can't speak to what differences are there in this specific case. However, I do know that a 32-bit floating point realization of an algorithm will sound different than the identical algorithm running on a system with a 16x16 bit fixed point multiplier, a 32-bit accumulator, and 16-bit delay memory. There will be a LOT of quantization, truncation, and saturation going on in the fixed point hardware, that will definitely color the sound. This isn't the ADC/DAC, but rather the precision of the processing in the hardware DSP.

The analog processing of the older Eventides was designed to get the best S/N and distortion performance out of the fairly limited DSP precision. The results are definitely cleaner than without the analog processing, but it will still result in distortion and noise. The artifacts will be pushed into more pleasant areas by the analog processing.

The H3000 had the capability to change the output sampling rate, which would result in pitch shifting without aliasing or delay interpolation artifacts. However, this was only used in some of the pitch shifting algorithms. Other algorithms in the H3000 used delay interpolation (probably linear interpolation, given the time frame), and ran at the input sampling rate. The Factory algorithms probably computed everything at a fixed sampling rate.

Sean Costello
antithesist
KVRian
 
915 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:22 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
deastman
KVRAF
 
4011 posts since 6 Aug, 2003, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby deastman; Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:26 pm Re: Eventide goes dongle free

Mushy Mushy wrote:
deastman wrote:The comparison starts a little after 3:00.

Wow, I could hear a difference even though I was only listening through my phone and headphones, and through YouTube.

That said, I do still think it sounds good. It's just the hardware is phenomenal.

I agree that some of the patches sound good. The whole concept of H3000 Factory is a good one, and I can see why it got a lot of use in the 90's.

I just feel that it needs a major update if its going to stay relevant in today's market. The filters, quite frankly, suck ass. Not to say that you can't get a lot of mileage out of them, but they are really rather pitiful by today's standards. And for this to stand up as a contemporary effect, it needs a lot more modules: better pitch shifting, feedback loop inserts on the delays, lots more lfos, sequencers, waveshapers, bitcrushers, saturation, more parallel signal paths for multiband splits... just to name a few.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/4" audio patchcord
kmonkey
KVRAF
 
3239 posts since 17 Aug, 2004

Postby kmonkey; Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:51 pm Re: Eventide goes dongle free

deastman wrote:Here is a comparison between the hardware H3000 and the TDM and VST versions. The purpose of the video is to prove that there is no difference between the three, but the demo actually proves just the opposite. While listening, it seemed obvious to me that the hardware sounded better. Reading through the comments, others seem to agree.

The comparison starts a little after 3:00.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlMu-T8tPMQ


Like i said...it simply ain't the same as hardware and when working believe me it's even more obvious,.. and Sean Costello did good explanation on why is that..
antithesist
KVRian
 
915 posts since 8 Feb, 2012

Postby antithesist; Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:57 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

I got to comparing the TDM manual to the native one a little.

There are enough differences that it's surely an further abstraction of the "amalgam" Dan Gillespie spoke of... very similar lame perspective GUI, though.

That said, I think it's too expensive for function even at the best current sale price.

Again, at least that's offset with our better deals on the other three and averaging it out.

But, guess what?

I'ma makin' some killer sounds with it regardless and couldn't care less whether or not it sounds like my hardware.

Plus, it's way easier to program than the hardware, even with my late friend Richard Zvonar's early Max-based editor.

As far as making it better: etide has plenty o' algos from H9 to Factor to X000s.

Like the cheerleaders say: bring it!

It ain't like Uhbik X is ever going to see the light of day.

Molekular seems like the ITB modular audio processor to beat now, though.

Ramble off.
WEASEL: World Electro-Acoustic Sound Excitation Laboratories
camsr
KVRAF
 
4574 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:54 am Re: Eventide goes dongle free

I think also it might be that Molekular is well within reach of that Eventide sound. The decision between the two may be closer to personal than audial.

Variable sampling rate would have a major impact on the sound of anything, so I suppose you guys are right.
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