What is KVR Audio? | Submit News | Advertise | Developer Account

Options (Affects News & Product results only):

OS:
Format:
Include:
Quick Search KVR

"Quick Search" KVR Audio's Product Database, News Items, Developer Listings, Forum Topics and videos here. For advanced Product Database searching please use the full product search. For the forum you can use the phpBB forum search.

To utilize the power of Google you can use the integrated Google Site Search.

Products 0

Developers 0

News 0

Forum 0

Videos 0

Search  

Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Melodyshine
KVRist
 
220 posts since 26 Aug, 2010

Postby Melodyshine; Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:19 pm Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

I can't believe that some piano-library companies keep secret that they haven't sampled all 88 keys. I took that for granted when they talk about 10 or 13 velocity layers!
The Giant by Galaxy Instruments has 82 sampled keys at most (the highest notes haven't been sampled chromatically).
Native Instrument's also didn't sample all 88 keys for the New York Concert Grand in contrast to Alicia's Keys.
But it's nearly deception when a company like Sampletekk says that the product "Sampletekk Black" has up to 14 velocity layers and that it might be their best grand piano library for 99$, but then keeping secret that only approximately 45 keys have been sampled... That's one of the reasons why I've sold Sampletekk Black and why I won't buy anything from Sampletekk again.
bigcat1969
KVRian
 
543 posts since 30 Jul, 2013

Postby bigcat1969; Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:47 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

Interesting. I still love the Sampletekk Black and always will, but I didn't realize it was sampled basically every other note.
I noted in the pianos I've created or Kontakted that the Salamander at every minor third sampled but with 16 velocity layers was tremendously smooth but a bit synthy and a touch unreal, while the City and Iowa sampled with every single key (well the Iowa is missing about 10 total) in 4 or 3 velocity layers respectively aren't anywhere near as smooth but seem much 'realer' and warmer to me. I wonder if this is related to being fully sampled or just my ear hearing the Yamaha (Salamander) versus the Baldwin and the Steinway.
Image
User avatar
murnau
KVRAF
 
2696 posts since 13 Jan, 2005, from Deutschland

Postby murnau; Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

pianoteq + blüthner add on is better anyway. i dropped all my sample-based piano libraries after i bought it.
“Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more” ― Nikola Tesla
User avatar
mysticvibes
KVRian
 
1026 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby mysticvibes; Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:42 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys :o
Image
hueynym
KVRist
 
245 posts since 29 May, 2012

Postby hueynym; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:00 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

mysticvibes wrote:what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys :o


"The only good sample is no sample"
User avatar
strayboom
KVRist
 
131 posts since 4 Nov, 2011, from Babylon 5

Postby strayboom; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:12 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

does it really matter how many keys have been sampled IF the overall sounding and quality is good enough?

to be honest, i don't like huge sound libraries. they take more cpu power and memory than it's reasonable. even if they are DFD.
so basically, i would care about sound quality and not sound quantity and also would consider if that spectacular sound fits into my music or not. i might need a different piano sound for pop music and different for jazz, etc, etc :)
User avatar
mysticvibes
KVRian
 
1026 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby mysticvibes; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:19 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

Also if the piano was in perfect tune to begin with wouldn't the sampled key sound the same as the next half step key when its semi tone is increased by one?
Image
User avatar
Burillo
KVRAF
 
1653 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:20 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

i would guess the problem is that if you have fewer samples, you'd have more chance of having subtle phasing issues due to different samples being phase-correlated. plus there's always the machine-gun effect.
From Russia with love
User avatar
murnau
KVRAF
 
2696 posts since 13 Jan, 2005, from Deutschland

Postby murnau; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:23 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

murnau wrote:pianoteq + blüthner add on is better anyway. i dropped all my sample-based piano libraries after i bought it.

mysticvibes wrote:what about physically modeled piano vsti, they didn't sample any keys :o


:wink:
“Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more” ― Nikola Tesla
User avatar
strayboom
KVRist
 
131 posts since 4 Nov, 2011, from Babylon 5

Postby strayboom; Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:24 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

multiple samples of the same key (aka. round robin) is mandatory :)
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:47 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

mysticvibes wrote:Also if the piano was in perfect tune to begin with wouldn't the sampled key sound the same as the next half step key when its semi tone is increased by one?
Not so much. Pianos are not tuned as though 12 equal to the octave is 'perfection' (pianos need piano tuners, which is a whole art in itself, it isn't that reducable); also you're leaving out the physicality and particularity of resonance/overtones by this assumption...

Now a lot of this is not crucial say in the last seven keys or something. Cheaping out in the bass would be the worst.
User avatar
mysticvibes
KVRian
 
1026 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby mysticvibes; Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:56 am Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

I was about to post about comparing the audio spectrum of say c with b increased a semi tone and have a look at there fundamental frequencies and harmonics but for some reason didn't get around to it. I know ratios are used in determining equal temperment scale... so these aren't exact ratios then? Would by any chance even velocity affect the harmonics as well?
Image
Melodyshine
KVRist
 
220 posts since 26 Aug, 2010

Postby Melodyshine; Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:08 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

Statement from Galaxy Instruments:
we've sampled The Giant chromatically, but unfortunately not all keys made it to the final stage of the instrument due to tuning and intonation. If we would have used these keys as well, the instrument would have been unbalanced.
Brother Charles
KVRian
 
718 posts since 2 Jan, 2012, from Alberta, Canada

Postby Brother Charles; Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:40 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

Hmmm . . . 'tis true, samples can be a "pain in the noodle" for sure. I bought SampleTekk's "The Grand" about a year and a half ago, and I was wondering why it only weighed in at around 1 GB. I do like the overall sound of "Black", but to be honest, I think the original SampleTekk "Black Grand" was better. While it didn't enlist the fancy Kontakt scripting, the raw, lesser-processed sound is really good. The same holds true for the other notable SampleTekk piano sample libraries: The White, TBO, Seven Cs, and etcetera.

** EDIT **

I just installed the most recent update for "ST Black" (ver. 1.2) - it's definitely much, much better. "The Black" is a very nice sample library, and it isn't too large.

I'm not sure why 4 Front's "True Pianos" doesn't get a lot more attention, because it is an absolutely enthralling product. Excellent sound, miniscule memory footprint, low CPU consumption, and affordable. I wrote a full review of it some time ago. The link is here, if you're interested.

4Front Technologies’ True Pianos Review – TRUE PIANO Modelling!

I also keep going back to one of my all-time favorites; ToonTrack EZkeys Grand. Small size, HUGE sound.
ToonTrack EZkeys Essential Pianos Review – The Song Writer’s Piano Friends
Last edited by Brother Charles on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thanks & God Bless,
Bro. Charles
Reviewer's Revival Blogsite | Facebook
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:20 pm Re: Piano-Library Companies don't tell us the truth?

mysticvibes wrote:I was about to post about comparing the audio spectrum of say c with b increased a semi tone and have a look at there fundamental frequencies and harmonics but for some reason didn't get around to it. I know ratios are used in determining equal temperment scale... so these aren't exact ratios then? Would by any chance even velocity affect the harmonics as well?
No, 12 tone ET per se produces irrational intervals, in fact (12 equidistant intervals arrived at through 12th root of two).

But piano tuning weighs a lot of things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning#Theory

Also see 'stretch tuning'.

The tuning described by the above beating plan provides a good approximation of equal temperament across the range of the temperament octave. If extended further, however, the actual tuning of the instrument becomes increasingly inaccurate because of inharmonicity, which causes harmonics to run slightly sharp, as increasingly higher tones in the harmonic series are reached. This problem is mitigated by "stretching" the octaves as one tunes above (and to an extent below) the temperament region. When octaves are stretched, they are tuned, not to the lowest coincidental overtone (second partial) of the note below, but to a higher one (often the 4th partial). This widens all intervals equally, thereby maintaining intervallic and tonal consistency.
Next

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

Return to Samplers, Sampling & Sample Libraries