New Roland "DANCE" hardware- AIRA TR-8, TB-3, VT-3, SYSTEM-1

[himalaya]

Do you DJ?

No, I compose and perform music, and that's where I see the benefit of instruments like the TR8. And no external controller can replace that.

No, not necessarily, but if direct parameters aren't interesting, then yes. It' not JUST about direct access.

The parameters are interesting in context of what the TR8 is trying to achieve.

To control your individual drum sounds, yes, so what? When was the last time that you heard that kind of performance?

"So what"? Do you make music or do you just write on forums about it?
When was the last time? Last night at my place? When my friends make music, both in their studios and live? And where thousands of other people make music, daily? Or do you have to be some world touring act to validate one's music making?

I have a 909, I don't use it for "those classic sounds" because you can get them from a handful of samples. You are basically restating my cynical belief. People are convinced that they're really getting an 808 and a 909 for a fraction of the cost, what a bargain. That's just consumerism. I don't care about that I care about innovation in music technology.

You can get them from samples, but you can't control them in the same way as you can on a dedicated box with knobs.

Consumerism? Hardly. It would be if everyone had the 808 and 909 drum machines and then Roland decides to release the TR8. But that's not the case. People are loving these sounds and want to play with a hardware box without spending £2000 a pop. Even if the sound is 95% there ( I don't know, perhaps I will get a chance to do my own comparisons to a real 808 and 909), it's still a great sounding, immediate and fun instrument, and yes I played one.

So you are being cynical about it all, I'm celebrating the fact that there we are seeing more inexpensive options, where none existed before.

[dcfac73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HRQ4YqyhGI

An example of Aira being used for a more "contemporary" style of music.

Artists like Richie Hawtin, Lil Wayne, hell ,even Nicki Minaj (or her producers), will probably all have had a look at this product. The 808 is a huge part of their sound. Richie Hawtin , in particular, who's Plastikman act used pretty much only a 909, 808, and 303 , will be releasing new music under that name soon. Wonder if he'll use any of them for that?

My point is, contemporary pop and house/techno is filled with the use of the sounds of these boxes. I think not only did Roland do a very smart thing in this venture (and also making them digital and affordable), but they're gonna make a killing. Future classic IMO.

Edit- I actually wonder what took them so long to do it. Producers have been crying out for something like this (consistantly) since the late 80s, and now that they've done it, we've got people bagging it.

[pdxindy]

No, I don't agree. The TR8 is far more outdated than anything that electron has been doing for years.

You consider direct, intuitive interaction with parameters (TR8) to be more outdated than a system that requires menus for its operation (like the Elektron gear you mentioned) ? This is upside down.

I have no idea what people are liking, what gear is popular etc. Maybe Roland is gonna make a mint on this gear and if they wanna make it and people want it, well there it is...

Myself, I think the Elektron stuff is far more innovative, forward-thinking and creative for realtime use.

To my ear, the TR-8 sounds repetitive. It is just some now standard sounds playing back in a fairly basic way without much editability. Roland has to put the Scatter control on there to make it a bit interesting.

The Elektron sequencer is way better for creative realtime performance. The parameter locks and sound editing/morphing controls are great! You don't need to go in menus to have far greater and more sonically interesting realtime performance control.

If people like the TR-8, great for them to have it. I'm not against it existing, but i do find it decidedly uninteresting, especially after listening to a bunch of you-tube videos. The Elektron gear on the other hand, makes me want to get it.

[himalaya]

Sure, the Elektron drum machine has some very cool innovative features, but to compare the TR8 to it and claim that it lacks innovation is to miss the purpose of the TR8, which is to provide the classic 808/909 sounds with a few bells and whistles thrown in for a good measure.

And for those classic sounds, the TR8 interface is just perfect, much better than anything else you care to mention.

I do agree that the 'evolved' part of the TR8 doesn't go far enough. In fact, it looks poorly. But still, it's an 808/909 emulation, which serves to bring those classic sounds to those still looking for them.

[pdxindy]

Sure, the Elektron drum machine has some very cool innovative features, but to compare the TR8 to it and claim that it lacks innovation is to miss the purpose of the TR8, which is to provide the classic 808/909 sounds with a few bells and whistles thrown in for a good measure.

And for those classic sounds, the TR8 interface is just perfect, much better than anything else you care to mention.

I do agree that the 'evolved' part of the TR8 doesn't go far enough. In fact, it looks poorly. But still, it's an 808/909 emulation, which serves to bring those classic sounds to those still looking for them.

Like I said, it might be just what lots of people want... I don't have a hankering for an 808/909 emulation in the first place so I start off kinda uninterested.

The sort of things I might look for are not there. You cannot automate parameters per step. For example, turn the pitch knob on a sound and that is not recorded. Likewise, the knobs send midi CC's which you can record in your DAW, but the TR-8 itself does not hear them so you cannot play them back.

I don't care about the whole analog vs digital side of the discussion. I think this recreation is plenty good enough sound-wise. It's the TR-8 device itself which I find uninspiring. In terms of my interests, it doesn't hold a candle to the Elektron boxes.

[ghettosynth]

[quote="himalaya"]Sure, the Elektron drum machine has some very cool innovative features,

I agree.

[ghettosynth]

Yes, I'm quite sure that a lot of people will buy it because it is a "digital" clone and not because it's an innovative product that pushes dance music forward. That's exactly what I said though, it's nostalgia.

The sounds of the 808 and 909 continue to be used in contemporary music right now...from techno to bass to trap to hip-hop.

Who in this thread do you think doesn't know that?

[Kriminal]

Still no System-1 in the shops to try....

[himalaya]

The question that I'm trying to get at is why?.

That question has been answered many times over by several people here.

The question, why a person would prefer a dedicated box, rather than a set of samples, has also been answered.

If Roland wanted to truly innovate, I bet they could, but the spec brief was to make an emulation of the 808/909. I bet if this spec had departed too much from the original, people would cry that it's too different.

It's a drum machine amongst many, many other drum machines. Choose one you can groove with. Or not.

[ZenPunkHippy]

There is a surprisingly large number of users out there who do not use computers at all in their set up. Strictly 100% hardware. Not necessarily "hardware snobs" (although I think many would fall in to that category).

The Elektron Overbridge announcement certainly helped illustrate that - quite a lot of people on the Elektronaughts forum complaining this new feature will be "useless" to them. Not sure how they record these days, I guess they're using tape or dedicated HDD recorder.

So while these new Roland boxes may not be quite as capable as the Elektron machines, they certainly fill a place in the market for affordable, easy to tweak / play drum synthesis. I think DJs with a hybrid set up will also find them useful for creating loops to mix over / breakdowns / custom fills or risers.

Peace,
Andy.

[kmonkey]

Look dude, nobody is missing the obvious use case of the TR8. The question that I'm trying to get at is why? I think I've got a pretty good grip on it, it's just Roland capitalizing on consumption. The TR8 lacks innovation, period.

It seems that you are debating this just for the sake of being right - which is nothing new. I don't see a point in your question. It's stupid a bit. Look it like this. The fact that you are writing on KVR is pretty much example on capitalizing consumption be it in form of information or whatever your thing is. Your questions aren't exactly innovative, period. And it's a fact. The question is why? Why are you making these repeated question? Can't you see that it doesn't make any sense?

Why do people buy new cars, while old ones can drive them in the same way? Progress? Hardly! They are still (most of them) on 4 wheels last time when i looked out of the window. But why?

But here we are...

now let me give you definitive answer on your question (i have TR8). Why? Because i like it. Is that enough? I could continue but shouldn't this be enough? I mean i am not destroying anyone life by using this instrument..

Are you really that hard to get that not all people are same, their workflow is different then your is, heck their life is very different then your is.

What part you are not getting? Shouldn't this be simple..

Aren't there better examples on why people

[Mushy Mushy]

Still no System-1 in the shops to try....

http://www.andertons.co.uk/synths-amp-w ... esizer.asp

30 June.


Apologies if we already knew this. And admittedly this is availability date which may or may not be the same as the first demo shipments.

Basically then I've just added nothing

[dcfac73]

Sorry I don't know how to use the quote feature properly.

The sounds of the 808 and 909 continue to be used in contemporary music right now...from techno to bass to trap to hip-hop.

Who in this thread do you think doesn't know that?

Well, quite frankly from your posts in this thread, you.

I see, so below you ask me if I've had my hands on one, I have, but you haven't. I suppose you've never had your hands on originals either?

Actually, I have had a hands on with both the TR8 and the original 808. I didn't have a chance to go through all the features, but I got a good idea of what it could be capable of.

"There have been fantastic emulations for years, this box is nothing special. "

That's your opinion.
From all accounts from expert reviewers that I've seen, the TR8 is arguably the most authentic emulation of the 808 and 909 they've heard. Check out the review in Sound On Sound Magazine for 1 example.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr14/a ... former.htm
This is only the intro to the article, but it gives you a fair idea.

From memory, the unit sounds quite authentic to me, that's backed up by AB comparisons on Youtube.
Either way, it's close enough not to matter. However, I'm guessing your issue with this product is not with the sound, but with the control features, and the fact it's digital.
I'm guessing that part of your argument is that you're questioning the necessity for an outboard digital emulation with the TR8's control feature set. Is this correct?

IMO the features that are present on the unit make a fantastic option for integration into a live performance rig.

You asked earlier about who would play live with a drum machine these days like it's 1999? Who played live ,exclusively, with a drum machine in 1999, or ever? Very few. The drum machine would form part of the live rig. The TR8 can be used in this way.The TR8 also enables integration with a pc if that's what the user wants. Being digital is a plus here. Also the unit would free up power on the host pc's cpu.

"I bet money that you can't tell the difference between a real 909 and a sample"

- well ,from this statement, there's really no point in bringing out outboard analogue gear at all. If samples sound the same, then companies like DSI ,Elektron and Moog are producing items which sound the same as samples of their products. We should all just lug around pcs everywhere to play live with midi controllers, and take our chances with reliability.

From what I can gather from your posts in this thread- you're arguing that everything the Aira offers can be done in the box with midi controllers. If this is correct, then I say you get the best of both worlds with this thing. You can integrate with additonal gear to expand functionality if you so desire. On the other hand, you get a huge amount of possibilities if you want to play this thing on its own.
Either way, you get a great sound source ,midi controller, and performance machine.

It seems like you're the perfect consumer.

Mate, if you can't see the value in a product like this, doesn't mean that a great many others are the same. You spend your money how you like, and I'll do the same.

Seriously, you're trying to tell me about Hawtin? For real dude? When was the last time that you saw Hawtin play live? What does he play? He hasn't used a 909 for a long time. These days it's all about, wait for it, Traktor and Machine. I saw him on a recent tour and his style has gone far beyond what you can do tweaking a 909.

I lived in Detroit about half of the last decade, I say Hawtin play live on numerous occasions. I've been a fan for decades. I have the vast majority of his catalog, twice, once on CD for listening, and once (or more) on vinyl for playing. My live style was clearly influenced by Hawtin and I've played minimal sets with 909+777 and effects. I get how people use this kind of drum machine in a live setting because I've seen them do it, I've done it, and I know what they've moved on to.
]

Yeah, you're a real hero.

I wonder how many other people who can make a similar statment will want/buy one of these machines? Hundreds? Thousands?

PS- I'm talking about his Plastikman sets, not his DJ sets.

I know he doesn't use the original boxes live. He uses samples with a pc with Ableton and controllers. Does this mean he won't consider using Aira as a source in the future? These products are perfect for integration into his setup.
If you know him so well, then find out from him if he won't use any of these products in his productions in some capacity in the future. While you're at it, confirm for us that these products won't be used by a great many of todays famous (or not) recording pop/hip-hop/rnb/techno/house/electronic/dance music artists either.

Your statement that the Aira will only appeal to those who want to play live with a drum machine like it's 1999, or ravers from the early 90's is highly presumptuous, simply absurd, and a little insulting.

It appeals to me, and I don't play live.

I just posted a video of a person making Trap music with this thing.
RnB, Trap, Hip-Hop, Pop- these are the big money making genres in music today. You seriously think these producers aren't going to shell out a bit of pocket change for something with this sound and functionality to incorporate into their productions? C'mon, tell me you know that for a fact.
Whether u use this thing live as part of a larger setup, or in the studio as a sound source, it's a no brainer for artists like these who's sound owes a great deal to those original boxes.

You said earlier that people pay stupid money for second hand units of the originals as collector's items. I think that's wrong in a great many cases. You think these people aren't going to use them to make music? I know someone who paid thousands for an 808 online. He releases music using this unit.

Ok, so the feature set doesn't meet all your needs. What stand-alone unit does? Push?? That costs $600-$700 USD- and that only comes with Live Intro. Maschine? That's $600, no faders...and oh,they're not stand-alone. You need a computer and an audio interface to make a noise.

What do you expect for a unit costing around $500?

Consider what you are getting for this money-

1. By all accounts- the best ever (or close to it) emulation of the 2 most coveted drum machines in history- and more to follow.
2. Most of (if not all) of the functionality of those original units + more
3. An audio/midi interface.
4. Audio and midi streaming of it's audio via usb at 32/96.
5. A very capable midi controller with plenty of knobs and sliders for other uses.
6. Build quality- A simple midi controller with this sort of build quality and control set could potentially cost 1/2 to 2/3 of the price of this thing alone.
7. On-board fx which can be flexibly implemented.
8. Potentially the ability to perform or sequence tracks in a stand alone unit without a pc.
9. Better reliability in a live setting compared to using a pc.
10. Takes strain off your host computer's cpu if you wish to use it with one.

"If you want one, knock yourself out, but stop trying to tell me that I'm missing something when you don't have the experience yourself to understand my point of view"

By the same token, if you can't see the value in it, don't buy one. But don't label potential users/admirers of this product in with old ravers from the 90s who have misplaced nostalgia.
Personally I want to use it to make music that is very much of the present. The feature set meets my needs for what I want to use it for, and it seems like a fair price.
You're also being presumptuous and a bit insulting when you say I " don't have the experience " to understand your point of view.
You have no idea how I make my music, or my experience with music-making, or how I want to use this product.
So you play live and this thing doesn't meet your needs. Doesn't mean others will be in the same boat.

You're entitled to your point of view, of course, as am I.
If you don't want to be critiqued on your opinions, don't post them in a public forum.

[dcfac73]

deleted.

[dcfac73]

No, I don't agree. The TR8 is far more outdated than anything that electron has been doing for years.

You consider direct, intuitive interaction with parameters (TR8) to be more outdated than a system that requires menus for its operation (like the Elektron gear you mentioned) ? This is upside down.

I have no idea what people are liking, what gear is popular etc. Maybe Roland is gonna make a mint on this gear and if they wanna make it and people want it, well there it is...

Myself, I think the Elektron stuff is far more innovative, forward-thinking and creative for realtime use.

To my ear, the TR-8 sounds repetitive. It is just some now standard sounds playing back in a fairly basic way without much editability. Roland has to put the Scatter control on there to make it a bit interesting.

The Elektron sequencer is way better for creative realtime performance. The parameter locks and sound editing/morphing controls are great! You don't need to go in menus to have far greater and more sonically interesting realtime performance control.

If people like the TR-8, great for them to have it. I'm not against it existing, but i do find it decidedly uninteresting, especially after listening to a bunch of you-tube videos. The Elektron gear on the other hand, makes me want to get it.

This all may be true, but how much does the Elektron cost? 2x,3x as much? I'm sure Roland could've released something just as innovative, and analogue as well, but not at $500