Looking for a "dry" hardware synthesizer

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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Hi, may I ask you for a quite specific advice?
Do you know a hardware synthesizer that would fit perfectly to a sampling-workflow? For recording takes played with the synthesizer into a DAW, and then changing these clips and adding effects in the DAW.

It needs *not to have:
- Digital output or sound device (tried it with a 20 year old Casio keyboard and I'm happy with the result)
- Arpeggio
- Channel effects (doing that in the DAW)
- Drum sounds (doing that in the DAW)
- Sequencer


It should have:

- Tonal acoustic sounds (orchestra, big band, piano, e-piano, some soft sounding guitars)

- Tonal synthesizer sounds (all there usually is, ideally with enough high frequency content, nothing dull and cheap) + a few knobs for controlling it (cutoff, reso, adsr)

- Ideally these knobs for all synth and acoustic sounds, hiding different internal generation techniques away from me. Nothing like "control this preset that way and the other preset another way"

- Good voice frequency control. By that I mean that I would be happy if I could set it to use a well tempered tuning for pianos and orchestral strings, so that I can create very sophisticated chords and moods. Things that shine already without using dsp effects on it.

- Maybe the "supernatural" stuff, off-samples and these inbetween-samples and that "intelligent velocity-switching" that knows what orchestral sounds to play without having to edit

- Pitch bend

- 49 or 61 lightweight keys

- Shouldn't cost more than $2000

I know my question is very specific. I've bought many software instruments and actually I always forget how to map and control the cc parameters, and I get frustrated when switching presets (every plugin does it their way, and exchanging plugins sometimes breaks the automation settings)

I've looked at many home keyboards and workstations, but i'm still not sure. Maybe I should just buy anything and try. Yamaha does cool acoustic sounds, some Roland instruments sound a bit "dull" but offer great features, Korg is great too...

The microtonal stuff is important for me. I have no idea yet which synthesizer would allow me to create "weird scale" sounds, though actually I'm just looking for "well tempered" and "little bit weird", and it (the tempered tuning) should be preserved with all 12 transpose settings, not just doing the math only from C upwards.

Many many many thanks for reading until here and maybe answering :)

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Since your focus is more on acoustic sounds and playing technique, you will be most satisfied with Roland's Integra-7. I've seen it for about $2,000. It's better than Jupiter-80 as well. If you insist on a keyboard, then Jupiter-50, but I think it's a bad choice if you already have a keyboard. And with JP-80 and 50 you have a few tuning presets (other than equal temperament) but with Integra-7 you also have easy custom tuning. Subtractive synth-wise, all the standard stuff is there, as well as super saw.

If you have any concern about the quality of the recorded samples, like were they recorded by idiots who don't know that samples should be dry (as is common in software sample libraries), do they allow for a coherent sound and performance, is the frequency balance proper, then don't worry because Roland has the best sound quality nowadays. Whoever records and programs their sounds is a genius. Many of the sound programs are very effective.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi

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the integra demos sound great!
got an idea how much sampling rom it uses? not as a measure of quality, but i wanna know how economic they were in designing these great sounds. a software library encompassing a similar range of sounds would no doubt be HUGE in size.

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nasenmann wrote:the integra demos sound great!
got an idea how much sampling rom it uses? not as a measure of quality, but i wanna know how economic they were in designing these great sounds. a software library encompassing a similar range of sounds would no doubt be HUGE in size.
Just FYI, I don't know if you've had rack synths before, but, I've had a ton of them and I've never found them as comfortable to program as a keyboard variant. Both the reduced size and rack footprint seem to make a difference. I had (still have) a K2000R that, although I really needed all of the outs, I somewhat regret not getting the keyboard variant simply because I spent a lot of time programming it and it was always uncomfortable. This was true even after I made great efforts to orient it properly.

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The controlling of the Integra-7 concerns me a bit (too). I've got a Roland A-49 to hook up, but I'd maybe missing a few more knobs that control it immediately. There are only buttons on the Integra.

I've had the SD-50 from Roland, and I had written a custom midi-tracker for it. Using all CCs and Sysex... If I try this with the Integra, it's maybe christmas before I start playing... I'm very keen on feeding Renoise (yep, Renoise) with live played stuff, without using C++ ;) I sometimes have to try all routes....

The Integra has easy custom tuning? Almost didn't read this... That would be phenomenal.

The Jupiter-80 is a bit out of my price range, the Jupiter-50 not. What I didn't find so great is that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jSgorEk2s where they compare the supersaw of 80 vs 8, and at least in the higher note ranges the 80 sounds a bit "knocking" and like linear interpolating away the bite. The SD-50 synth section sounded that way.. and one can't really add the high frequencies of a saw back later.

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dagh wrote: The Jupiter-80 is a bit out of my price range, the Jupiter-50 not. What I didn't find so great is that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jSgorEk2s where they compare the supersaw of 80 vs 8, and at least in the higher note ranges the 80 sounds a bit "knocking" and like linear interpolating away the bite. The SD-50 synth section sounded that way.. and one can't really add the high frequencies of a saw back later.
Well, the one thing that I'm hearing in that video is that the oscillators are detuned more in the higher ranges leading to much faster beating. For me, that masks anything else. I don't find it pleasant, in my opinion, the analog needs to either be tuned, or, perhaps needs service, the scaling might be slightly off.

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I'd suggest looking at the Kurzweil PC361. Yes, it has most of the features that you DON'T want (e.g., effects, arp), but you can turn those off. But, from memory and from what I can tell from your needs, I believe that it has all/most of the features that you are looking for, it's a quality instrument, and is well within your budget.
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The new Korg Triton Taktile keyboard actually fits the requests quite well:

http://www.jrrshop.com/korg-triton-taktile-49

If you can find a used Alesis Fusion or Yamaha EX5, those would be excellent choices because they combine wide ranges of synthesis methods.

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ghettosynth wrote:Just FYI, I don't know if you've had rack synths before, but, I've had a ton of them and I've never found them as comfortable to program as a keyboard variant. Both the reduced size and rack footprint seem to make a difference. I had (still have) a K2000R that, although I really needed all of the outs, I somewhat regret not getting the keyboard variant simply because I spent a lot of time programming it and it was always uncomfortable. This was true even after I made great efforts to orient it properly.
i feel the same way about having bought the Korg M3m instead of the keyboard version, which has a few dedicated controls that the patches mostly all make use of... and then there's the V-Synth XT (which i love) that has patches designed to use the D-Beam that's not present on the unit... :-P But yeah, keyboards take up lots of space...
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Uncle E wrote:The new Korg Triton Taktile keyboard actually fits the requests quite well:

http://www.jrrshop.com/korg-triton-taktile-49

If you can find a used Alesis Fusion or Yamaha EX5, those would be excellent choices because they combine wide ranges of synthesis methods.
As a Fusion owner, i can agree, though you'll spend time customizing patches to get what you want. The machine has great potential, but seems the Alesis sound designers were a bit conservative on the programming. There was a huge pile of free libraries offered for a bit before they killed the product, and a lot of that was pretty cool sample-based stuff (Hollow Sound), but the machine still didn't see its synthesis options used to great effect. There are many patches where i had to disable the vibrato, routing it to aftertouch instead of always on. That annoys me in most synth presets, though. It's a very potential-rich synth (in hands better skilled than Alesis' or me), though i'm not sure the filters really scream/self-oscillate (from my time twiddling dials on presets), if that matters to you. But turning off ARP is easy (front panel button) and turning off effects is almost as easy (output page of the preset edit screen, crank FX bus sends to zero). Negatives are: the power supplies in the smaller versions seem to die heat deaths quicker than the 88-key beasts, some bugs (one of my unit's four infinite encoder knobs has a dead spot where the values jump... not nice when opening and closing filters), a feature set that wasn't finished (eSATA port that does nothing), and a PATA hard drive (PIO mode only, at that, it seems).
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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cryophonik wrote:I'd suggest looking at the Kurzweil PC361. Yes, it has most of the features that you DON'T want (e.g., effects, arp), but you can turn those off. But, from memory and from what I can tell from your needs, I believe that it has all/most of the features that you are looking for, it's a quality instrument, and is well within your budget.
I was going to suggest looking for an older K2500 because they are often fairly inexpensive these days and have a lot of the right features.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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dagh wrote:The controlling of the Integra-7 concerns me a bit (too). I've got a Roland A-49 to hook up, but I'd maybe missing a few more knobs that control it immediately. There are only buttons on the Integra.
I'm kinda jaded on synths, and have got lazy on sound design, and have some older synths that seem to make a lot of the sounds people are still trying to dupe with VA and such. I appreciate bread'n'butter acoustic sounds, which the old synths don't nail very well, and it looks like an integra covers that slot about as well as other modern hardware.

The integra looks like something I could enjoy, and might have got one awhile ago except the price seems high. Am sure it is worth the money for the value included in all the sound design and assuming typical roland durability. I have several roland boxes positively ancient, still kicking good as new. But still, $2000 for a rack synth seems kinda high.

The videos of the ipad editor look real impressive, easy-peasy. Lots better than punching buttons on a rack panel. I have some android pads but never had the hots for an ipad. Can't stand apple as a company after developing on macs so many years, and seriously dislike the concept of buying anything from the apple store. But if I got an integra I'd bite the bullet and get an ipad to leave connected to it as dedicated front end. Looks like it would be fun.

Am rather burned on longevity of such setups though. A well-built hardware synth, it will work good as new for however many years until it lets the smoke out. But the software, if one relies on it, not so much. I have lots of Roland softsynths that won't work anymore on modern OS, which I'd be even more bitter about had my copies not been NFR samples. But even initially getting them free, it is saddening because they were really nice synths gone forever because roland doesn't update them.

Just saying, in a year or three when new apple "innovations" break the integra editor software on new ipads, previous history would not make me expect roland to issue updates to the integra editor software, so sometime a few years in the future when a dedicated ipad I would get to pair with the integra would go up in smoke, then it would probably not be "expectable" that I could buy a new ipad in 2017 or whatever and have much hope of running integra editor software on it.

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I'd recommend taking a look at the Yamaha Motif line. You can get a 61 key version in your price range these days. They also have some of the most natural sounding patches IMO.

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The Motifs are excellent.

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Hmm, just noticed the new Roland FA-06 and FA-08. Looks purt good for the money. Might talk myself into getting one of these. Supposedly workstations are for squares and fogeys, so what can I say? It isn't a "dry" synth, but at the apparent sound quality, human interface, and price, assuming roland still makes solid hardware, looks like a good deal even if one never uses the arpeggiator, sequencer, etc.

For years the roland keyboards in this price range were basically "keyboard with a sound canvas built-in" which were rugged and usable for what they were, but not something I'd jump on. I don't gig much any more, but occasionally sub on club gigs where the house keyboardists have used that mid-price range Rolands for years 6 night gigs, and the keyboards hold up. Good enough to "get by" though the patches the other keyboardists used were IMO "barely acceptable", never bothered to try to customize one to see if it could be modified more to my liking.

Never used a Motif. Subbed on many gigs where the keyboardist had a Kurzweil on stage, which sounded good on bread'n'butter sounds, but I never tried to customize the sounds, just learned the keyboardist's setup. Read the programming manual, but looked too dense to bother to learn. I'm not scared of programming a synth and have programmed many, but the kurzweil method didn't look like something I'd want to fool with.

In that mid-price range, those roland FA models look like much better sounds, easy to use, ergonomic. I like that it has a button-and-knob editing without a touch screen. I have possibly unfounded suspicion of touch screens, fearing that a touch screen would wear out many years before the keyboard, circuits, knobs and switches would wear out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIfuiK_Ntr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhpVAhmrEdA

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