Bitwig

nexttrack30 · Post by **nexttrack30** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:59 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote: Whoa whoa... not just nested effects but any containers? Ok, well that's useless then. I'm so glad I heard this before buying one as it saves me the hassle of returning it. How the heck does this "deeply" integrated controller miss out on functionality of under 100 dollar controllers?
It would be crazy if this didn't get fixed. Did they give you an indication of when this would change?
Please keep us posted! Thanks.

this was last response from nektar and i asked follow up question but couldnt hear them since last week.

"You cannot select a device within a container from Panorama. We would like to be able to do this but an update to Bitwig's controller API is necessary."

don't know 1thing about coding, maybe bitwig have to do something?
seems like nano kontrol2 is best integrated midi controller for now.
i'd buy it if it has 360 encoders.

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:32 pm

I was alerted to this thread after receiving a few emails from Bitwig Studio users who are interested in Nektar Panorama. To avoid any confusion about how Panorama works with Bitwig Studio, I have written up the below which I hope answers most of the questions raised here.

How many controls?
Bitwig Studio currently allows for up to 17 controls to be dynamically mapped at the same time via the Device Mapping Pane. This is the same for all controllers at this point. We of course hope that BWS will be expanded to allow for more in the future since Panorama have additional buttons and encoders that could be taken advantage of. These additional Panorama controls can currently be used for other purposes such as function control and learn.

Plugin pages
The 8 right hand encoders are mapped in pages that can be individually named when mapping VST plug-ins, as it has been done for example for Polysynth. User created pages can be navigated from Panorama via the popup menu. We are not aware of any limitation to the amount of pages that can be created.
The "Common" parameters page is the Instrument/Device mode home page which appears when the [Instrument] button is pressed but mapping is not just limited to one page.
In Bitwig Studio there is one fader page but it can be customized to your liking. Most controllers don't take advantage of this page, but Panorama does. It's not possible to create copies of the page in the Bitwig Studio device mapping panel. We would like that to be possible, including the ability to create nested navigation pages. Hopefully we'll see this in a future version of BWS.

Learn
Whether you use Bitwig Studio's learn mode or mapping panel, Panorama will display parameter names and values. So it's possible for example to use the 8 encoders above the faders for learn functions in instrument mode (in Mixer mode they control pan and sends). Parameter name and value is shows in the top info-line on the panorama display when a parameter learned to one of those encoders is active.
In Mixer mode, there is also a "User" page for learning 8 project specific parameters. This page displays the encoder assignments and their status.

Buttons
Because of the 17 dynamic controls limit in the device mapping pane, it currently doesn't make sense to allocate buttons to control slots. As and when the device mapping pane is expanded, more controls and of course buttons will be added to our Panorama scripts.

Controlling Nested devices and devices within a container
In Bitwig Studio there are two options for control selection when you create a script:

1) Using the Primary Device designator
2) Control the device in focus.

Panorama uses the Primary Device designator which is what makes it possible to select devices from Panorama or by right-clicking and selecting a device as Primary Device. If we had used the "in-focus" approach, Panorama would only control a device once it's selected using the mouse. Given that Panorama is all about giving you control without having to constantly reach for the mouse, the decision to use the Primary Device designator seems right. And the option is still there to select a device using the mouse if needed.

Currently however, BWS designates both a nested device (or a device within a container) and the host device as Primary Device. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that nested device parameters are wired to the control surface. We are hoping for an update that will allow for nested devices to be selected as Primary Device, independently of the host device.

What Panorama does over simpler controllers with Bitwig Studio
There is no doubt that different people are looking for different things. Our aim with Panorama has always been to provide a transparent controller experience that allows musicians and producers to create and perform without being constantly tied to their computer. For a keyboard player, having to interrupt your music to reach for a mouse is a pretty big creativity killer.

For completeness, I'd like to list some of the main benefits that otherwise are overlooked in the discussion :

Mixer control, including soft-take over so your parameters don't jump when you move the faders
Display of track name of the currently selected track as well as what device you are controlling.
Transparent navigation of device patches including category/creator and patch name.
Display of assigned parameter names and value feedback for assigned controls.
Extensive transport control including navigate project and setting loop points.
Control of Tempo, shuffle, rate, play position and more
Play position display
Launch (and record) clips and scenes directly from Panorama including displaying clips and scene names
Motorized fader, solo and mute buttons that always give channel mixer control over the currently selected track (P4 and P6 only).
And a lot more to detailed to list

What's next?
Cubase and Reason users have already experienced how we continuously work on updating our integration. Though we always do our best in a first iteration, the fact is that we learn a lot from users about how the product is best used with the software, following the release. In addition, the DAW developers learn from our use of their integration protocols (which frankly in many cases few hardware companies have ever put to the test) which results in both improvements and bug fixes along the way.

Bitwig is one of those great, responsive companies that you can only dream of working with. The maturity of the software/hardware experience is way beyond many established products. Still, as this thread has highlighted, there is room for improvements. I can't speak for Bitwig but from what I have seen, they are as determined as we are to ensure that users get the best experience possible. That bodes well for future improvements.

Niels Larsen
Nektar
http://www.nektartech.com

nexttrack30 · Post by **nexttrack30** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:35 am

Nektar Panorama wrote:
Controlling Nested devices and devices within a container
In Bitwig Studio there are two options for control selection when you create a script:

1) Using the Primary Device designator
2) Control the device in focus.

Panorama uses the Primary Device designator which is what makes it possible to select devices from Panorama or by right-clicking and selecting a device as Primary Device. If we had used the "in-focus" approach, Panorama would only control a device once it's selected using the mouse. Given that Panorama is all about giving you control without having to constantly reach for the mouse, the decision to use the Primary Device designator seems right. And the option is still there to select a device using the mouse if needed.

Currently however, BWS designates both a nested device (or a device within a container) and the host device as Primary Device. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that nested device parameters are wired to the control surface. We are hoping for an update that will allow for nested devices to be selected as Primary Device, independently of the host device.

thank you very much.
always great to hear directly from company.

i see. nanokontrol maybe using "2) Control the device in focus."
i agree that for keyboard player, it'd be better to change devices with midi controllers.
but since p1 doesnt have keyboard, and for those who are not keyboard player,
just mouse click/select device in bigger size monitor screen is faster way (imagine 10+ plugins in a row when mixing, sound design) .
it'd be better to have option to choose from 1) and 2) though.

concerning nested device, please correct me if i'm wrong.

if i set nested device as a primary device with right click, can i control nested device with p1?

you can click picture to view full size.
http://blog.naver.com/knkm003/70189232186

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:51 am

That's correct. NanoKontrol is set up to control the device in focus. We can do the same thing with Panorama and have debated doing that as a short term solution if we have to.

Even with the P1, navigating the plugins using the data control makes sense. It's much faster to just turn the dial and just find the plugin even with 10+ in the chain, compared with first having to reach for the mouse, the scroll the window and click before you get back to the task of controlling.

Having said that, it doesn't really help that it's quick if you don't have access to everything which is the point we are discussing.

All Panorama products navigate the same way at the moment. Being able to right-click and make a nested device the primary device for control is currently not possible, because it's already designated as a primary device through the host. The problem is, that doesn't currently make it controllable and we hope this can be resolved in the near future.

Either way, I feel confident that we will be able to control nested devices in the not too distance future but can't set a time frame yet.

nexttrack30 · Post by **nexttrack30** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:24 am

thx for quick response.
hmm maybe. i shouldn't say mouse is faster since i've never experienced panorama dataknob before.

anyway, great to hear that it will be solved in not too distance future.

Simulant · Post by **Simulant** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:20 am

Neils - thanks for the explanation. So am I correct in thinking that the 17 controls is a limitation in Bitwig? And that we might see that limitation raised in the future?

So, do the sliders have pages too?

And from what I read, because of the 17 control limit, you have opted not to map VST buttons at this time?

I'm just trying to clarify as those are the points that are most important to me. I basically want a controller that I can use as you have suggested - one that takes me away from the mouse and keyboard and acts like a hardware synth. This would be like a dream come true, as it'd allow me to use all of my synths and have the control of a hardware synth. Best of both worlds imo.

Grottengeier · Post by **Grottengeier** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:44 am

Hi Niels,

I´m not sure I got everything you said, so I will rephrase it in my words and ask you to confirm or deny.

If I want to control a vst, I can use the knobs to control it. To navigate through all of the parameters I will have to create pages, which I can configure to my liking (first page controls OSC, second Filter, etc.). If this is correct it would already be great.

Furthermore, regarding control of vst: I can assign one page to the faders but only once per device, and I can not use the buttons, right? If the vst is nested, I will not be able to control it, right?

Also important: Do I get feedback of the current values of my vst?

Thank you for your contribution!

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:04 pm

So am I correct in thinking that the 17 controls is a limitation in Bitwig? And that we might see that limitation raised in the future?

Yes correct. Panorama of course is designed so that you can use up to 37 controls for plugin mapping and we'd like to be able to use all of them for simultaneous plugin control. I can't speak for Bitwig but I know them to be very responsive to user and partner needs (they made many changes to their controller API following requests from us for example) so I believe this is bound to be improved.

So, do the sliders have pages too?

There is one page for sliders. If you check the Bitwig Studio mapping pane (click the gear icon) you will see that there is a "Fixed Sections" heading with 3 options underneath. Panorama's faders are locked to the page named Envelopes. So if you drag the assignment slots to parameters for a vst plugin, that will assign the faders to those controls. However you can't create multiple pages for faders.

And from what I read, because of the 17 control limit, you have opted not to map VST buttons at this time?

Correct. Buttons are really important because there is nothing more disappointing than tweaking a control which doesn't do anything because a section is not switch on for example. But right now it makes no sense to sacrifice encoders for buttons. We'd like the buttons to be available in addition.

To navigate through all of the parameters I will have to create pages, which I can configure to my liking (first page controls OSC, second Filter, etc.). If this is correct it would already be great.

Yes correct. You can create pages for the 2x4 encoders (The faders only have one page as mentioned above) and navigate them from Panorama. They can be named too [ctrl]+[click] and the name appears in Panorama's navigation popup window. So it gives you a lot of mapping opportunities.

Furthermore, regarding control of vst: I can assign one page to the faders but only once per device, and I can not use the buttons, right? If the vst is nested, I will not be able to control

Exactly. And we of course plan to improve it from there but this is how it works now.

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:10 pm

Forgot this one:

Also important: Do I get feedback of the current values of my vst?

Yes you get value feedback and parameter name.

Grottengeier · Post by **Grottengeier** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:17 pm

thank you for clearing things up niels!

justshine · Post by **justshine** » Fri May 02, 2014 3:16 pm

Quick question for the Nektar team. Really liking the integration so far, however I've come across an issue where the motorized fader becomes unresponsive in Bitwig after a while.

Pretty sure it's not the fader itself, as the fader is still sending values in internal mode , but will not send any values or respond in Bitwig. Any suggestions?

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Fri May 09, 2014 6:04 pm

I wanted to share the good news that in Bitwig Studio 1.08 you can now control nested devices from Panorama. This is done by right-clicking on the nested device. At this point you are then able to navigate through all the nested devices in the chain using the data control on Panorama.

Nektar Panorama · Post by **Nektar Panorama** » Fri May 09, 2014 6:08 pm

Hi Justshine,
I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Communication loss can be caused by a number of different things including problems with power or settings in the OS.
Best thing is if you contact us via support which you can do here: http://www.nektartech.com/s.nl/it.I/id.57/.f

I'm sure we can help you out.

All the best

Niels
Nektar

www.nektartech.com

justshine · Post by **justshine** » Fri May 09, 2014 6:25 pm

Nektar Panorama wrote:Hi Justshine,
I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Communication loss can be caused by a number of different things including problems with power or settings in the OS.
Best thing is if you contact us via support which you can do here: http://www.nektartech.com/s.nl/it.I/id.57/.f

I'm sure we can help you out.

All the best

Niels
Nektar

http://www.nektartech.com

Thanks Niels will be sure to contact support.

Are there any other steps needed for changing the nested devices? I've upgraded to 1.08 . For example I have a drum machine track that I've right clicked, however I still cant switch to the sampler(nested device) with the nektar data encoder. The only way to do so is still by selcecting it is a the primary device. Perhaps I'm missing an obvious step?

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Fri May 09, 2014 8:08 pm

Nektar Panorama wrote:I wanted to share the good news that in Bitwig Studio 1.08 you can now control nested devices from Panorama. This is done by right-clicking on the nested device. At this point you are then able to navigate through all the nested devices in the chain using the data control on Panorama.

So you still have to click the device with your mouse to control it? Couldn't you already control devices by clicking them with the mouse? Oh I guess not for Nektar because you use the other method that allows the hardware wheel to select devices. But doesn't right-click bring up a context menu? And do you mean right-clicking the container device and then the hardaware can scroll through the layers? Can it still go through the device chains for each layer?

Bitwig

KVR Audio

question about nektar panorama