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Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

How to do this, that and the other. Share, learn, teach. How did X do that? How can I sound like Y?

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BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:04 am Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

This is an open-ended question.

I am using a sample library (orchestral) with concert-hall reverb baked into the samples, and I want to use it along with sounds (synthetic or whatever else) that have less verb built in to them.

If I start with the wet orchestral sounds and then introduce a synth with low reverb, it tends to be a bad effect. It's like you're listening to a symphony on your iphone and then the phone rings.

If I put lots of verb on all the synth stuff, it all blends nicely. But I am open to weirder solutions that involve processing the wet orchestral sounds so that they mix better with drier sounds. Like I could EQ the bottom and top out of the wet orchestra. But that's like orchestra over AM radio and it only goes so far.

What else should I consider? There are no wrong answers for this. Thanks.
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Krakatau
KVRAF
 
4600 posts since 24 May, 2002, from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH

Postby Krakatau; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:15 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

This is a rather expensive, but effective solution to gain flexibility with rendered reverberations, it can be adjusted either for removing reverberation or enhance it :

http://www.zynaptiq.com/unveil/

As i could evaluate it qualities from the time i bought it (a few month) the technology need perhaps to (still) be improved but give as it currently is very convincing results in most cases

there is also this one, less expensive :

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/deverbe ... on-digital
Last edited by Krakatau on Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
camsr
KVRAF
 
4640 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:16 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

Is there stereo in the instruments sound itself?
If it is mainly mono instrument, and stereo reverb, you may be able to rid the side signal and leave the mono, with less reverb.
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BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:22 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

camsr wrote:Is there stereo in the instruments sound itself?
If it is mainly mono instrument, and stereo reverb, you may be able to rid the side signal and leave the mono, with less reverb.


It's EWQLSO, instruments in their normal locations in a real concert hall, with samples from three different mic locations. One mic is up close and I think the instruments are centered in those samples. That's a really good idea.
skipscada
KVRian
 
763 posts since 22 Oct, 2004, from Schmocation

Postby skipscada; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:23 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

- Embrace the initial reverb discrepancy and use other methods to make the different sounds gel, like running them through the same effects. If you manage to massage the sounds and somehow make them fit together, you may come up with a very personal sound. Don't worry if it sounds strange as long as it sounds good to you.

- Edit the orchestra samples so that you're left with the attack/decay part, but less of the sustain/release. Shape the tail of the samples with some sort of fade, and then apply the same reverb/delay as on other sounds, but probably a lot more. The samples will probbaly sound bad on their own and are likely to sound very artificial even in context, but you should be able to get the orchestral impact/vibe.
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Krakatau
KVRAF
 
4600 posts since 24 May, 2002, from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH

Postby Krakatau; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:25 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

BachRules wrote:
camsr wrote:Is there stereo in the instruments sound itself?
If it is mainly mono instrument, and stereo reverb, you may be able to rid the side signal and leave the mono, with less reverb.


It's EWQLSO, which has samples from three different mic locations. One mic is up close and I think the instruments are centered in those samples. That's a really good idea.


No they aren't, it depend on where theyr'e traditionnally located inside the symphonic orchestra

...except the close mic takes that are located by panpot (right !)
camsr
KVRAF
 
4640 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:35 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

If you can use the mono version, it will cut half the reverb, conversely if it's in stereo, it will also cut into the instrument.
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BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:44 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

skipscada wrote:- Embrace the initial reverb discrepancy and use other methods to make the different sounds gel, like running them through the same effects. If you manage to massage the sounds and somehow make them fit together, you may come up with a very personal sound. Don't worry if it sounds strange as long as it sounds good to you.


I like this idea. It doesn't have to sound spatially normal as long as it sounds good.

skipscada wrote:- Edit the orchestra samples so that you're left with the attack/decay part, but less of the sustain/release. Shape the tail of the samples with some sort of fade, and then apply the same reverb/delay as on other sounds, but probably a lot more. The samples will probbaly sound bad on their own and are likely to sound very artificial even in context, but you should be able to get the orchestral impact/vibe.


I like this too. Thank you.
BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:41 am Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

WOK wrote:http://www.kvraudio.com/product/deverberate-by-acon-digital/details


Krakatau wrote:This is a rather expensive, but effective solution to gain flexibility with rendered reverberations, it can be adjusted either for removing reverberation or enhance it :

http://www.zynaptiq.com/unveil/

As i could evaluate it qualities from the time i bought it (a few month) the technology need perhaps to (still) be improved but give as it currently is very convincing results in most cases

there is also this one, less expensive :

http://www.kvraudio.com/product/deverbe ... on-digital


Thanks for making me aware of these options. It seems impossible, like stirring cream into coffee and then trying to remove the cream, but I'll look into these and see what they can do.
BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:32 pm Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

camsr wrote:... If it is mainly mono instrument, and stereo reverb, you may be able to rid the side signal and leave the mono, with less reverb.


This made sense to me yesterday, but after more reflection I've become confused. You are referring to splitting the signal into mid and side? And, mid = L+R? So by simply summing L+R into a mono signal, I can cut half the reverb?
camsr
KVRAF
 
4640 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:31 pm Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

Yes, if the original sound was single mic'ed, it is mono. Then if any fake reverb was added, it would have added side channel not present with the instrument, and also added some mono fake reverb. It doesn't always work!
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BachRules
Banned

Postby BachRules; Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:37 pm Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

camsr wrote:Yes, if the original sound was single mic'ed, it is mono. Then if any fake reverb was added, it would have added side channel not present with the instrument, and also added some mono fake reverb. It doesn't always work!


I could be wrong, but I think these samples were double-mic'd (or Decca-mic'd), but with the mics oriented so that the instrument sounds would be centered. I will definitely experiment with your suggestion. Thanks again.
camsr
KVRAF
 
4640 posts since 16 Feb, 2005

Postby camsr; Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:56 pm Re: Samples with big verb: How to put them in a smaller room?

In that case it surely will affect the instrument.
It might be worth it to check out the dereverberation products.
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