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We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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KVRAF
 
1814 posts since 18 May, 2003, from Sweden

Postby Spitfire31; Fri May 02, 2014 11:10 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Just checked out the latest MVintageRotary and I'm very happy to report that the foot pedal toggle function is now implemented, as Vojtech promised. Although it took a support mail to Vojtech to find the location of the toggle setting, in the Advanced Settings window…

A very good sounding Leslie emulation.

/Joachim
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
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KVRAF
 
1898 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America
  

Postby Jace-BeOS; Fri May 02, 2014 11:36 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

JCJR: thanks for that informative post about the electromechanicals. I feel less like I'm missing out now, though it would surely still be nice to play them somewhere, just to experience them. I know that a real live grand piano always inspires me more than any software version, so the same is likely true of a real electromechanical.

As for the Leslie effect, I'm still impressed that it's had such a long term impact on people. It's kind of a crazy device if you think about it :hihi:
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
KVRist
 
213 posts since 6 Mar, 2012

Postby Skorpius; Fri May 02, 2014 11:58 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Jace-BeOS wrote: I can't tell whatsoever the difference between real or emulated Hammond or Rhodes when I listen to music albums.


Regarding the Hammond, you might want to listen to some old Deep Purple or Rainbow records (on vinyl, not on CD!). After doing so, you'll surely hear a difference between a real, tube-loaded hardware instrument and any software Hammond emulation around.
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KVRian
 
785 posts since 10 Jan, 2006, from Pittsburgh
 

Postby DocAtlas; Fri May 02, 2014 5:59 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

dwozzle wrote:@FET, thanks for the pointer to the martinic combo organs, they both seem excellent.

@everyone, didn't I see MVintageRotary on sale somewhere recently? Can't find it now, except a post from JRR, but that price doesn't seem to be happening now.

It also looks like there's new related but different rotary from Melda, with more options I think, MRotary, same price at least for now. Anyone tried it?


I picked up their new one, and it's quite nice. I haven't had a chance to compare it with any other sims, or my Leslie, but I will when I get some free time. My current favorite sim is Amplitube 3, but that could change.
I wish I could sing as well as the voices inside my head...

http://www.cdbaby.com/darkvictory
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KVRian
 
785 posts since 10 Jan, 2006, from Pittsburgh
 

Postby DocAtlas; Fri May 02, 2014 6:06 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Spitfire31 wrote:
Jace-BeOS wrote:I can't tell whatsoever the difference between real or emulated Hammond or Rhodes when I listen to music albums.

That might be because you apparently haven't played a real, physical Hammond with a real, physical Leslie? ;-)

If you had, you'd realise that capturing/creating the extremely complex interrelationship between an electromechanical tone generator, a tube amp and a spinning horn-and-baffle is no easy thing.

So many have tried. Some have come closer than others and there's arguably still room for improvement.

I'll agree that in a busy mix, the finer points might get lost. But if you're soloing, there're big differences between the various emulations.

/Joachim


There's definitely a difference. A lot does get lost in a mix, but the physical interface one is using is important, even if the listener can't tell the difference.

I've spent most of my life playing a C3/Leslie combo, and using a pair of synth keyboards as controllers just doesn't cut it, no matter how good the Hammond emulation sounds. Trying to play from a weighted piano keyboard isn't much better.
Two manuals with waterfall keys, drawbars (not faders) and even the physical distance between the upper and lower manuals makes for a very different experience.
I wish I could sing as well as the voices inside my head...

http://www.cdbaby.com/darkvictory
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KVRist
 
107 posts since 20 Dec, 2008

Postby dformd; Fri May 02, 2014 7:34 pm Re:

evilantal wrote:I think it's high time we saw a new king of the Hammond emulation plugins! Reasons below:

- The current champion is GSi's VB3. However, it hasn't been updated in a while and there is no 64-bit version.
- NI B4II is discontinued (also trumped by VB3 and also no 64-bit version)
- The rest of the modeled plugins currently available kind of suck compared to VB3 (Linplug Organ3, ?)
- Only decent alternatives are sample based (NI Retro Organs, UVI Charlie) and that really isn't an option for dynamic drawbar manipulation playing.

How's the Model C in HALion 5? Ayone ready to step up to the plate?

These (B3 themed) threads always remind me of PJ Geerling's wonderful series of plugins, and I weep a little inside.
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KVRAF
 
1898 posts since 7 Jan, 2005, from Corporate States of America
  

Postby Jace-BeOS; Sat May 03, 2014 2:51 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Yeah those have beautiful interfaces and good sound... I never understood why they suddenly went missing.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
KVRAF
 
7216 posts since 19 Feb, 2004, from Paris
 

Postby Lotuzia; Sat May 03, 2014 8:23 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Or some people might want to try the Xils LX-122 Lezlie effect.

Described by some real Leslie users as *ze best one* fwiw.

http://www.xils-lab.com/pages/LX122.html

Emulates several types and config of vintage Leslies units, adds a lot of things not available in the original units ( As a Xils should, like horn diameter, belt age, balance of horn and drum, inertia, miking angles etc ) and besides that, very f.a.s.t and easy to dial your sound. Premium version has a simple but sweet sounding reverb on board too. Works very well with NI B4 II ( btw I made a bank of B4 II naked presets, for those who want to use the Xils, or any other, leslie emulation, with the b4 II and its .. free )
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Soundbanks for Vsti

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there [Xils-Lab Team]
KVRist
 
113 posts since 27 Dec, 2012, from Boston area

Postby dwozzle; Sat May 03, 2014 9:10 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

@Lotuzia: What kind of computer and OS are you running B4 on? I have my install disk, but I haven't tried it on anything more recent than the Windows 98 computer I had at the time. I've been wondering if it'll run on a 64 bit Windows 7 machine, ideally on a 64 bit host through jBridge.
KVRAF
 
7216 posts since 19 Feb, 2004, from Paris
 

Postby Lotuzia; Sat May 03, 2014 9:20 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Win Xp Sp3. Runs perfectly fine.
http://www.lelotusbleu.fr Soundbanks for Vsti

77 Exclusive Soundbanks for 23 synths, 8 Sound Designers, Hours of audio Demos. The Sound you miss might be there [Xils-Lab Team]
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KVRian
 
785 posts since 10 Jan, 2006, from Pittsburgh
 

Postby DocAtlas; Sat May 03, 2014 10:16 am Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

dwozzle wrote:@Lotuzia: What kind of computer and OS are you running B4 on? I have my install disk, but I haven't tried it on anything more recent than the Windows 98 computer I had at the time. I've been wondering if it'll run on a 64 bit Windows 7 machine, ideally on a 64 bit host through jBridge.


I run it on Windows 7 64 bit with no problems. I'm using Sonar with jbridge. I haven't used it much since I got VB3, but it does work.
I wish I could sing as well as the voices inside my head...

http://www.cdbaby.com/darkvictory
KVRian
 
841 posts since 17 Apr, 2005
 

Postby JCJR; Sat May 03, 2014 1:13 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Jace-BeOS wrote:JCJR: thanks for that informative post about the electromechanicals. I feel less like I'm missing out now, though it would surely still be nice to play them somewhere, just to experience them. I know that a real live grand piano always inspires me more than any software version, so the same is likely true of a real electromechanical.

As for the Leslie effect, I'm still impressed that it's had such a long term impact on people. It's kind of a crazy device if you think about it :hihi:


I agree with DocAtlas on the feel of "the entire package" sound, feel, ergonomics. On real hammond and grand piano some (I think) has to do with playing against something solid that weighs hundreds of pounds. The times I've used A frame stands or apex stands, even heavy solid 88 controllers don't feel right bouncing around. I made solid boxes to put the keyboards on, makes a big diff to me.

I looked at local used rebuilt piano prices today. Was surprised to find that decent-enough rebuilt grands are still about as affordable as new pro electronic keyboards. A rebuilt piano done by a good tech is as good or better than new. Gotta have the grand action. Upright actions are by nature never gonna work as good as a grand action. Grand action arguably the most musical keyboard interface ever devised, developed and improved for hundreds of years.

You also want as long a frame in a grand as you can afford (and have space to use). Longer pianos have less inharmonicity than short pianos. Purer sound, and when they are in tune, they SOUND in tune. Some shorter instruments, even grands, don't quite sound in tune even after you have done your best (because of the inharmonicity). But it varies. My 70 year old 5' 2" baldwin grand tunes up real well. Not bad inharmonicity at all.

====

People have been trying to copy hammonds and leslies for decades, ain't nothin new. Even Hammond has been trying to copy hammonds, even before suzuki. Tis a testimony of adoration of tonewheel hammonds that so many designers over the decades have attempted to make lighter/cheaper copies.

Yamaha and others made drawbar portable organs from the 1960's on, that tended to sound more like a hammond than a farfisa, and could get by on a gig especially thru a leslie, but put one beside a tonewheel hammond and there was no contest. In the late 1970's or early 1980's Hammond released a solid-state single keyboard portable organ that in some ways was a pretty good clone. I carried one of those around several years, lots easier than toting the real thing. But same deal-- Put it side-to-side with the real thing and it sounded awful.

When korg released their hammond clone in the 1980's, asked a friend what he thought about it. He replied, "It might sound like some hammond somewhere, but it don't sound like MY hammond." :)

Same deal with rotary speakers and leslie emulators. Folks been making em since the late 1960's. Some better than others, most better than no leslie at all, but NOT the sound of a leslie 122 or 147.

Maybe some of the current hardware and software is getting real close. Would like to study it more.

You can go to youtube and spend weeks watching old stars playing gospel, R&B, jazz, rock on hammonds. The instrument is amenable to so many playing styles.

Here is a clip saw the other day, "just a simple funk tune" though Jimmy Herring would never hire a thumb finger like me in his band. :) I would speculate even the job as "sideman on a funk tune" would be a WHOLE lot more difficult to pull off on a clone--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fau1dnLWTLA
KVRist
 
113 posts since 27 Dec, 2012, from Boston area

Postby dwozzle; Sat May 03, 2014 3:38 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Smokin' clip, great players, very cool!


Other channel, for all you guys with better contact with or memory of actual Hammonds...

Playing some more with VB3, I notice that percussion doesn't trigger with legato playing -- you have to release all keys in a given manual for it to kick in when you play the next note. That seems to be intentional, listed as "Single triggered percussion" in the manual, so I assume it's how a real Hammond behaves.

I don't remember that being the case. Is that standard? Seems a little tricky to implement with the tech of that day, but clever people were definitely involved.

Is there any way to disable that in VB3, so it's just always triggered? Not sure what I'd think of it in reality, but I thought I'd like to try it.
KVRian
 
841 posts since 17 Apr, 2005
 

Postby JCJR; Sat May 03, 2014 4:16 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Yep, have to release all keys to retrigger the perc. It was easier to accurately do on the light, quick, shallow tonewheel keyboards. I knew jazz players back when who would practice hanon and bach to work out their finger dexterity to get the articulation to trigger the perc on each note (when it was artistically desirable to trigger every note).

It wasn't a matter of advanced tech to get that feature, rather primitive tech. All electronic organs were nightmares of wiring harnesses. Hammond had 9 busbars running under the keys, each feeding one of the drawbar tone controls. Under each key were 9 switch contacts, each carrying the correct note harmonic from the tonewheel generator. And a bunch of wire cross connecting all those switches as appropriate. When they invented the perc feature, they stole the highest 1' bus to trigger perc coming off another of the busses (depending on whether you select 2 or 3 perc tone). So when perc was turned on, the sound of the highest drawbar went dead.

The dang things were practically ALL electro mechanical. The earliest models only had two tubes-- one rectifier power supply tube and one preamp tube after the passive mixing of the drawbars. A little more electronics were added when perc and chorus vibrato was added, but most of the good parts of the chorus vibrato were electro mechanical as well.

A model I'd most love to have if I could find one in great shape. Am uncertain of the early model number. Not quite the earliest ones. I had one for years but it was in bad shape and finally sold it off. Have played some in good shape. Some variant of model A I think. It was before the scanner vibrato, so they wired in an entire extra tone generator for the chorus effect. The chorus generator had split toothed wheels to generate extra pitches sharp and flat of the main generator. Very fat sound IMO. In the location later occupied by the vibrato scanner, was a tremulant scanner that performed a completely mechanical tremolo effect, controlled by an extra slider to the top right of the keyboard. Dang thing kicked butt on TWO TUBES!

They make percussion kits that can be retrofitted to most all of em, including those old 1930's models.
KVRist
 
113 posts since 27 Dec, 2012, from Boston area

Postby dwozzle; Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 pm Re: We need a new king of Hammond plugins!

Yup, that's what I thought. The action on both my keyboards is pretty light (microKey61 to mess around in the living room, SY99 in the basement "studio"), but the thing is, I'm not actually much of a keyboard player. I can play enough to write and arrange, but I'd never gig on keys, no way, at least not at this point.

So for me, keyboard wimp that I am, I'd like the option to turn off the single triggered percussion behavior. Am I right that VB3 is too faithful to the original to have that option? Didn't find it in the UI or the manual(s).

Down memory lane, I think my band back in the day had a C3 and a 147, more sure about the C3 than the Leslie model. It was totally completely awesome. It was also a fairly serious bitch to get up multiple snowy flights of stairs in the dark loading in. But we were young and stupid and fearless, no problem!
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