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Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

If it's not about music it belongs here! Please keep it civil and decent.... except - see below->

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KVRAF
 
3699 posts since 19 Jan, 2008

Postby tapper mike; Wed May 07, 2014 10:25 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Re 70's references to the prostitution quote.

I can recall it being a joke in Barney Miller however the joke was "begging"

Begging, it's the oldest profession'

I thought it was prostitution?

Someone had to ask.
KVRAF
 
3596 posts since 5 Jan, 2006, from UK

Postby fandango; Wed May 07, 2014 10:53 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

robojam wrote:
fandango wrote:Fair enough. I'm not a mod.

You're a mocker?

I DO love a bit of Paul Weller now and again... :love:

But I wouldn't pay for it...
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KVRAF
 
2921 posts since 22 Jul, 2006, from Melbourne, Australia
  

Postby nix808; Wed May 07, 2014 2:04 pm Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

OK WR,
That quote is Kipling from 1880,
and I can't find any substantiation for my interpretation.
The word 'profession' only enters English in the 1200s.
You may be right-
however I thought everyone knew this saying meant what I have delineated.
It is a more cynical outlook than yours-
so there might be some hope for us 8D

I will now read this in 2 ways- as the Kipling reference sorta seems to be the origin. Do you think he had heard the saying and wrote it into the piece, or his prose is the root?

The best logical step I can make for my definition is that:
profession hunter= all people are hunters on a basic level thing I outlined.
I hope you will consider this definition, it may predate Kipling,
although not necessarily accept it as the correct interpretation.
It is not a hard step to make, IMO, since this meaning has been spelled out quite satisfactorily.

If this ever comes up in conversation, I am a little wiser- and won't immediately assume the dark meaning is the only one and it should be read as such only.
However, also we shouldn't be naïve.
KVRAF
 
1752 posts since 20 May, 2010, from between a star and the sea

Postby havran; Wed May 07, 2014 5:53 pm Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Maybe thug is the oldest profession.
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KVRAF
 
19986 posts since 26 Jul, 2005, from Inside Schroedinger's Cat...or am I...

Postby robojam; Wed May 07, 2014 6:30 pm Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

havran wrote:Maybe thug is the oldest profession.

I thought politician had already been mentioned...
KVRAF
 
6179 posts since 6 Sep, 2008
 

Postby Mushy Mushy; Thu May 08, 2014 1:57 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

robojam wrote:
havran wrote:Maybe thug is the oldest profession.

I thought politician had already been mentioned...

:lol:
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
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KVRian
 
1489 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Thu May 08, 2014 2:45 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

tonkatodd wrote:Well again I explained it a maybe 3 times

no you didn't. again, stating the same thing over and over again doesn't equate to explaining it and providing justification for it.

tonkatodd wrote:The way it was explained and referred to me as a slur was that women are born whores so it precedes all professions. There is no way to know the earliest profession and if Women are born whores then that would be the earliest.

yes but the key point is, this does not follow. by this logic, "if men are born whores then that would be the earliest professions" - i.e. a slur against men. in other words, to acknowledge this as a slur against women/men means to acknowledge the fact that all women/men are born as whores, which in no way is present anywhere in the original quote but rather is a meaning that you try to retrofit. so how is it you ignore all contexts but the one you're claiming?

tonkatodd wrote:That's the slur, That's the context of the slur. It's a phrase to imply Women naturally use sex for there own gain.

i just shown you otherwise - this is a phrase to imply men naturally use sex for their own gain. see? claiming something doesn't equate to explaining how do you come with conclusion that this is specifically a slur against women and should be understood as such. just as in my analogy with homosexuality - just because i used "homosexual" as a slur doesn't mean it's a slur against gays, and it doesn't mean it's a slur in the first place.
From Russia with love
KVRist
 
228 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Thu May 08, 2014 3:11 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Burillo wrote:
tonkatodd wrote:Well again I explained it a maybe 3 times

no you didn't. again, stating the same thing over and over again doesn't equate to explaining it and providing justification for it.

tonkatodd wrote:The way it was explained and referred to me as a slur was that women are born whores so it precedes all professions. There is no way to know the earliest profession and if Women are born whores then that would be the earliest.

yes but the key point is, this does not follow. by this logic, "if men are born whores then that would be the earliest professions" - i.e. a slur against men. in other words, to acknowledge this as a slur against women/men means to acknowledge the fact that all women/men are born as whores, which in no way is present anywhere in the original quote but rather is a meaning that you try to retrofit. so how is it you ignore all contexts but the one you're claiming?

tonkatodd wrote:That's the slur, That's the context of the slur. It's a phrase to imply Women naturally use sex for there own gain.

i just shown you otherwise - this is a phrase to imply men naturally use sex for their own gain. see? claiming something doesn't equate to explaining how do you come with conclusion that this is specifically a slur against women and should be understood as such. just as in my analogy with homosexuality - just because i used "homosexual" as a slur doesn't mean it's a slur against gays, and it doesn't mean it's a slur in the first place.


Well of course if prostitution was associated as largely a male profession back then it would apply just as easily and in this day and age it would apply cross gender but prostitution throughout history has been associated with females within a sexist male driven society where female sexuality was always scrutinized and used to shame and control women. You say I'm trying to retrofit the phrase to fit the meaning but this is a slur that was used to describe myself and other women around when growing up in a sexist tongue in cheek way. Again prostitution and whores throughout history have largely or mostly been associated with women and that's how the phrase comes to the conclusion as you say that it is a slur against women. In western modern society where these issues are more in the open these assumptions wouldn't be so easily come to, In the middle east maybe not so much.
KVRist
 
228 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Thu May 08, 2014 3:20 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Burillo wrote:i just shown you otherwise - this is a phrase to imply men naturally use sex for their own gain. see? claiming something doesn't equate to explaining how do you come with conclusion that this is specifically a slur against women and should be understood as such. just as in my analogy with homosexuality - just because i used "homosexual" as a slur doesn't mean it's a slur against gays, and it doesn't mean it's a slur in the first place.


Yes that's right. Sort of. It's like someone saying "pffft woman drivers". It has no basis in fact or logic it's just a sexist slur to imply women can't drive. It can easily be "pfft men drivers". That doesn't make it an accurate statement because there is no basis in fact , It's a dumb sexist comment.
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Beware the Quoth
 
21197 posts since 3 Sep, 2001, from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Postby whyterabbyt; Thu May 08, 2014 3:28 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

tonkatodd wrote:
Burillo wrote:i just shown you otherwise - this is a phrase to imply men naturally use sex for their own gain. see? claiming something doesn't equate to explaining how do you come with conclusion that this is specifically a slur against women and should be understood as such. just as in my analogy with homosexuality - just because i used "homosexual" as a slur doesn't mean it's a slur against gays, and it doesn't mean it's a slur in the first place.


Yes that's right. Sort of. It's like someone saying "pffft woman drivers". It has no basis in fact or logic it's just a sexist slur to imply women can't drive. It can easily be "pfft men drivers". That doesn't make it an accurate statement because there is no basis in fact , It's a dumb sexist comment.


Yes, but 'pfft women drivers' specifically contains what its a dumb sexist comment about. ie 'women' who are 'drivers'.

There is nothing which cointains 'all women are whores' in the phrase 'prostitution is the oldest profession' and you're basically trying to argue that somehow the phrase in and of itself contains something which intrinsically implies 'its an old profession so all humans of one specific gender must be guilty of it' in there in the phrase somewhere.
And yet there's nothing in the phrase which can imply that, or if there is, you've failed, repeatedly, to explain which part of it.
To laymen, software development is something akin to wizardry. Neither time, nor effort are involved. If software is missing features they want, or has bugs, it is solely because someone has been too lazy to wave their magic wand.
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KVRian
 
1489 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Thu May 08, 2014 3:32 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

tonkatodd wrote:Well of course if prostitution was associated as largely a male profession back then it would apply just as easily and in this day and age it would apply cross gender but prostitution throughout history has been associated with females within a sexist male driven society where female sexuality was always scrutinized and used to shame and control women.

okay. i can play this game too.

tonkatodd wrote:You say I'm trying to retrofit the phrase to fit the meaning but this is a slur that was used to describe myself and other women around when growing up in a sexist tongue in cheek way.

again, just because i used the word "homosexual" in a derogatory way doesn't mean this word means what i meant by saying it. just because someone uses this phrase as a slur doesn't mean this phrase is a slur in and of itself. there is nothing in this phrase that implies that "women are whores".

tonkatodd wrote:Again prostitution and whores throughout history have largely or mostly been associated with women and that's how the phrase comes to the conclusion as you say that it is a slur against women.

no, it doesn't. homosexuality is usually referred to in the context of male homosexuality - it doesn't mean women can't be homosexual, and it certainly doesn't mean that the word "homosexuality" means "male homosexuality" despite it being sort of "common knowledge".
From Russia with love
KVRist
 
228 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Thu May 08, 2014 4:03 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

whyterabbyt wrote:
tonkatodd wrote:
Burillo wrote:i just shown you otherwise - this is a phrase to imply men naturally use sex for their own gain. see? claiming something doesn't equate to explaining how do you come with conclusion that this is specifically a slur against women and should be understood as such. just as in my analogy with homosexuality - just because i used "homosexual" as a slur doesn't mean it's a slur against gays, and it doesn't mean it's a slur in the first place.


Yes that's right. Sort of. It's like someone saying "pffft woman drivers". It has no basis in fact or logic it's just a sexist slur to imply women can't drive. It can easily be "pfft men drivers". That doesn't make it an accurate statement because there is no basis in fact , It's a dumb sexist comment.


Yes, but 'pfft women drivers' specifically contains what its a dumb sexist comment about. ie 'women' who are 'drivers'.

There is nothing which cointains 'all women are whores' in the phrase 'prostitution is the oldest profession' and you're basically trying to argue that somehow the phrase in and of itself contains something which intrinsically implies 'its an old profession so all humans of one specific gender must be guilty of it' in there in the phrase somewhere.
And yet there's nothing in the phrase which can imply that, or if there is, you've failed, repeatedly, to explain which part of it.


No I never said "it's an old profession so one specific gender is guilty of it" I never said that. "Pffft woman drivers" is a comment suggesting that all woman can't drive or stereo typically women can't drive but in the phrase doesn't completely say "pfft all women everywhere can't drive", It's a sexist comment used in a context to "imply" that women can't drive reflecting on a sexist stereotype, The same can be said for "pfft asian drivers". There is no fact or logic behind the comment and if you wen't to China and said "pfft asian drivers" the response would be the similar as yours, "Where does it specifically say Asian drivers can't drive" "That doesn't say all Asians can't drive". The same can be said for the oldest profession phrase, It was as a sexist comment directed to myself and other women as a sexist joke implying we use sex like a prostitute for our own gain like it is ingrained in our dna that exists before we do anything, Of it was never used back then to literally say that its fact but as an insult, And I'm not or never said that was the original context of the phrase but it was used in that context.

As for the original context of the phrase I don't know and on other boards and yahoo answers people copy and paste the same Kipling quote and there are old greek writings people copy and paste but in any sense I don't think the phrase is suppose to literally mean it is actually the oldest and first profession because that is impossible to know unless you believe in genesis and the world started in a week but that's nonsense. To think that with the thousands of tribes all over the world back then inbreeding and creating the first societies over thousands and thousands of years that someone would know what the first activity someone did regularly to be classed as a profession is ridiculous.
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KVRian
 
1489 posts since 15 Nov, 2006, from Hell

Postby Burillo; Thu May 08, 2014 4:12 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

tonkatodd wrote:I don't think the phrase is suppose to literally mean it is actually the oldest and first profession because that is impossible to know unless you believe in genesis and the world started in a week but that's nonsense. To think that with the thousands of tribes all over the world back then inbreeding and creating the first societies over thousands and thousands of years that someone would know what the first activity someone did regularly to be classed as a profession is ridiculous.

actually, i think you'd be surprised, but this phrase has some merit even if understood literally.

i've read about an experiment not long ago, involving monkeys. basically, scientists introduced to them the concept of money, and watched what they did. almost immediately, female monkeys started offering sexual favors for money. therefore it is not too far fetched to say that prostitution is in our DNA, and it could very well be the oldest profession. well, not a profession as such (there were no professional prostitutes among monkeys), but certainly one of the oldest human activities right there with hunting, gathering and whatnot. in fact, one could certainly argue not without merit that it *predates* humans.
From Russia with love
KVRist
 
228 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Thu May 08, 2014 4:15 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Burillo wrote:again, just because i used the word "homosexual" in a derogatory way doesn't mean this word means what i meant by saying it. just because someone uses this phrase as a slur doesn't mean this phrase is a slur in and of itself. there is nothing in this phrase that implies that "women are whores"..


I haven't said anywhere that it was the original context of the phrase. I never said it. I said that it was used as a sexist slur when I was growing up.
KVRist
 
228 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Thu May 08, 2014 4:18 am Re: Prostitution can't be the oldest profession in the world. Can't be.

Burillo wrote:
tonkatodd wrote:I don't think the phrase is suppose to literally mean it is actually the oldest and first profession because that is impossible to know unless you believe in genesis and the world started in a week but that's nonsense. To think that with the thousands of tribes all over the world back then inbreeding and creating the first societies over thousands and thousands of years that someone would know what the first activity someone did regularly to be classed as a profession is ridiculous.

actually, i think you'd be surprised, but this phrase has some merit even if understood literally.

i've read about an experiment not long ago, involving monkeys. basically, scientists introduced to them the concept of money, and watched what they did. almost immediately, female monkeys started offering sexual favors for money. therefore it is not too far fetched to say that prostitution is in our DNA, and it could very well be the oldest profession. well, not a profession as such (there were no professional prostitutes among monkeys), but certainly one of the oldest human activities right there with hunting, gathering and whatnot. in fact, one could certainly argue not without merit that it *predates* humans.


Haha That's pretty funny, Did one of the males start pimpin. I always thought that it implied that it wasn't the activity of prostitution but that women are naturally of low sexual morals like a prostitute but that's just me.
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