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Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion

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neverenoughfunk
KVRian
 
567 posts since 6 Feb, 2004

Postby neverenoughfunk; Wed May 07, 2014 8:27 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

spaceman wrote:
softska wrote:Time will tell but 30 RE for 30 diff instruments isn't exactly my cup of tea.

Erm.. care to extend on that?

Do you mean you would prefer one RE to get 30 new instruments? Do you know of any VST that is 30 instruments in 1? Sorry, just guessing what you're saying here as it doesn't really make sense.


i thought you had telepathy?

:tu:
if sarcasm was musical talent... there would be a ton of Mozarts walking around... :tu:
kiezum
KVRist
 
195 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Postby kiezum; Wed May 07, 2014 10:49 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

The main problem with RE's in Reason is that RE's can't be resold. They are just too expensive and non-essential to buy. But I really love the marketing video's of Propellerheads! Cubase is my main DAW, but oh those marketing video's are terrible.
oxygenet32
KVRist
 
88 posts since 9 Jun, 2007, from Temple, Georgia

Postby oxygenet32; Wed May 07, 2014 2:31 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

Having to pay to upgrade your host in order to purchase a new plugin is ridiculous - glad I went with FL Studio, never have to worry about this madness.

Chris
TheoM
KVRAF
 
19195 posts since 4 Sep, 2001, from Melbourne Australia

Postby TheoM; Wed May 07, 2014 3:11 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

neverenoughfunk wrote:
TheoM wrote:It's no different to having to upgrade to a version of a host that uses VST3 to use VST3 versions of a plugin. For example on mac you have to have an AU or VST3 host to use halion sonic. It's just the way of progress. I am sure as new RE sdk are released, they will only be included with latest versions of reason at the time, so yes, i would say this trend is here to stay. Reason 6.5 is finished in that there won't be any more updates, it's an "as is", much like any previous version of any host.


never encountered this... never owned a MAC... or AU plugin... i never had to purchase/upgrade a DAW for a plug-in... my DAW of choice ableton live even came out with a "free" 64-bit update/upgrade for live 8... i guess mileage will vary... but when Rack Extension first came out... i never thought in order to use the "latest" SDK i would have to be current with the "latest" Reason release...

more and more... i personally think... Props should have went with vst/i instead of Rack Extensions... it appears to run Reason and Rack Extensions it's expensive compared to the alternatives...


I couldn't think of anything worse for Reason than it using VST. Besides, i know it is discussed here alot, but HONESTLY, for REAL, there is no chance it will EVER happen, so it's a pointless discussion. It really is one of those simple choices of "accept it or don't cause it ain't gonna change".
It is the most stable host in the world by a HUGE margin. Guess what, the only crashes i have EVER had "with reason" are using a vst in a standalone host via the reason EXT midi. LOL. Otherwise I have found one bug in reason 7.1, that is it. Amazing.

As far as "never encountered this", you can't use VST3 plugins in many hosts, and although few, there are some plugs that are vst3 only.

Actually, why not look at the bright side of RE for a change? I can name MANY vst and Au that i can no longer use because of OS and HOST changes. I will be able to use any Re i purchase today in any mac or windows OS 20 years from now. :wink: Who can offer that?

I can guarantee (for you it seems this is a negative, unfortunately) that the updated RE sdks will not make it into older Reason versions, and IMO that is entirely normal and fair. It is up to a dev whether to choose to make a plugin of the newer SDK only or not. Right now you can't use synchronus or the guitar. That's it. You can use everything else. The amount of RE that use SDk2 are about the same amount of VST3 only plugins that need a vst3 host. What's the difference? Do you expect steinberg to add vst3 functionality to cubase sx3? same diff.

I have no comprehension as to why you expect propellerheads to update a finished product. I don't get it. reason 6.5 is as is and that's it.
"Just call me shitload, cause I own a shitload of plugins!"
softska
KVRian
 
539 posts since 1 Sep, 2008, from US

Postby softska; Wed May 07, 2014 5:43 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

spaceman wrote:
softska wrote:Time will tell but 30 RE for 30 diff instruments isn't exactly my cup of tea.

Erm.. care to extend on that?

Do you mean you would prefer one RE to get 30 new instruments? Do you know of any VST that is 30 instruments in 1? Sorry, just guessing what you're saying here as it doesn't really make sense.

I guess I hope they'll extend Dr. OctoRex/NNXT/Combinator features rather than coming out w these standalone thing like this new A-list Acoustic Guitarist thing that is essentially a rex player with couple features added. I'm sure there are counter-arguments but it really feels more like a refill with copy protection.
User avatar
bmrzycki
KVRAF
 
3222 posts since 11 Aug, 2006, from Austin, TX

Postby bmrzycki; Wed May 07, 2014 6:39 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

Let's look at what those upgrade dollars bought us over the last 11 years:

Reason 2 released:
* NNXT + soundfont
* Malstrom
* first release of the Orkster refill
* sequencer tweaks
* 24-bit sampling
* tempo-synced LFOs
* BV512 (2.5 free update)
* RV7000 (2.5 free update)
* Scream 4 (2.5 free update)
* UN16 Unison (2.5 free update)
* spider mergers and splitters (2.5 free update)

Reason 3 released:
* combinator
* m-class devices (3 effects)
* micromix
* reworked UI, file browser, midi prefs

Reason 4 released:
* Thor
* RPG-8
* ReGroove
* new sequencer

Reason 5 released:
* Kong
* Octo Rex
* Live sampling
* combinator enhancements
* blocks
* on screen keyboard (still amazed they listed this as a compelling feature)
* self-contained songs (which is pretty much destroyed now with REs)
* Neptune (if you had Record)
* Some audio clip reworkings (if you had Record)

Reason 6 released:
* Pulveriser
* Alligator
* The Echo
* Enhanced audio transpose
* 64-bit
* If you owned Record, the price was Pay what you want, as low as $1/ €1
* Pulsar (was free when 6.5 and REs were announced, now is a paid RE)
* The unification of Record and Reason (new mixer, adjacent racks, audio recording, etc)

Reason 7 released:
* Midi out
* Bus channels and a few small workflow changes
* Spectrum analyzer + graphical eq
* Slices can be saved as REX files (makes one wonder the future of ReCycle...)
* Audiomatic transformer
* (EDIT: Synchronous is no longer free for those who upgrade to the latest Reason, it's a paid Re)

Reason 8 released:
* New streamlined sequencer workflow
* Replacement Softube guitar and base amps for the Line 6 ones. The Line 6 ones will disappear from the rack in October 2016.

When I look at those feature sets I'm still disappointed with the v7/v7.1 release. It's particularly striking when I look at 4,5,6 (and especially 2 -- wow!) release features in comparison. And now with the R8 release it continues to be disappointing.

There's no included instrument in R7 and I consider Audiomatic transformer (it sells for $49?!) well below the usual quality of Propellerhead devices. Rather, you have to pay close to the full Reason upgrade price to get any of the new instruments: Parsec ($119), PX7 ($99), A-List Acoustic Guitar ($99), Radical Keys ($99), Radical Pianos ($99). Don't forget the new effects: Rotor ($49), Polar ($69), Synchronous ($49).

If you wanted to upgrade from R6.5 to R8 and get all the Props new toys it now costs you:
$129 (upgrade) + $99 (A-List Acoustic Guitar) + $119 (Parsec) + $99 (PX7) + $149 (Radical Instruments Bundle) + $49 (Rotor) + $69 (Polar) + $49 (Synchronous) = $762! Yikes. And there's no re-selling of those add-ons so don't expect a way to get them at discount unless the store has a (currently-unannounced) sale.

We now have a much more fractured user-base because of REs. It used to be that every R6.0 user could share songs with each other. Now it's no different than the world of plugins: you have to have all the REs your friends do to share songs, or bounce to audio beforehand.

I'm waiting to see what is offered to me at the time of the R8 upgrade. EDIT: I've seen the R8 upgrade and it too is lacking.
Last edited by bmrzycki on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
neverenoughfunk
KVRian
 
567 posts since 6 Feb, 2004

Postby neverenoughfunk; Wed May 07, 2014 6:54 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

TheoM wrote:I have no comprehension as to why you expect propellerheads to update a finished product. I don't get it. reason 6.5 is as is and that's it.


first off... i like Reason very much... not the fact of expecting propellerheads to update a finished product... but the way they explain it up front was not that you had to have a current version of Reason when a new SDK was release to run the latest RE... the questions about SDK was asked a million times but never answered... the way they talked... Rack Extensions were ground breaking... what was the slogan... "people just want more... now here are Rack Extensions".... nothing about as we develope this platform i.e. SDK... you are going to need the current version of Reason... again... not expecting props to undate a finished product... just came to the realization that Reason and Rack Extensions can get expensive pretty quickly... we are waiting for the release of the next SDK... right?

about vsti in Reason... that ship has sailed... the decision should have been made when the decision was made for rack extensions... not asking for vst/i in Reason... again... just coming to the realization that Reason to stay current to going to be expensive... i am not sure what new features came out with Reason 7... but i do not need them... i have to update to use a Rack Extension and the likelyhood of all new RE to use the new SDK...

about VST3... i do not own any VST3 plugins (native instruments, east/west, specstrasonics)... i not sure if halion sonic 2 is VST3 but it runs in ableton live 7/8/9... VST3 (today) is not an issue for me...

about the stability of Reason... i honestly cant remember a crash on my setup (ableton 9 64-bit)... again... i been a Reason user since version 1... i like Reason very much... but it is becoming an expensive tool to own...
if sarcasm was musical talent... there would be a ton of Mozarts walking around... :tu:
tonkatodd
KVRist
 
243 posts since 25 Jun, 2010

Postby tonkatodd; Wed May 07, 2014 7:33 pm Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

neverenoughfunk wrote:
about VST3... i do not own any VST3 plugins (native instruments, east/west, specstrasonics)... i not sure if halion sonic 2 is VST3 but it runs in ableton live 7/8/9... VST3 (today) is not an issue for me... .


Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe there isn't any Native Instruments products that are VST3. They are AAX64, AU and VST. Upgrade pricing is expensive on most products and the amount of money I spent in the past on Logic 4,5,6, Brought a mac to use it when it switched,7,8,9 and I didn't buy X, Called it quits. Easily spent over $2000 on that software alone and then there were the upgrades for Cubase as they seem to always charge and then theres upgrade prices on Komplete and even though I skip every second Komplete upgrade I do end up buying the new products that come out in between and then when I do upgrade Komplete I have already brought the included "new" inclusions. Most software companies charge upgrades and so they should for major upgrade, They need to eat. Flstudio don't charge if you have the life time free upgrades but people argue that there are no real new instruments included and just demo of addons. In fairness I brought Flstudio in 2001 and I still get free upgrades but I have only brought one instrument in that time from them and that's Directwave.

These days you do have to commit to a package otherwise you just end up forking out for upgrades constantly. At the beginning of the year I decided to sell most of my software and try to not adopt any new packages to simplify the upgrade damage. It's difficult because if you are an enthusiast every new fancy shmancy looks crucial. In regards to Reason I brought the upgrade happily and have brought 3 RE's in the last 2 weeks and happily use it rewire. I think as these plugin standards evolve cross platform is going to become more isolated which is even going to be more expensive to keep up. My personal issue here is I use PT11 and use it for work but really enjoy using Halion5 but the chance of Halion5 going AAX64 is very very slim.
User avatar
EnGee
KVRian
 
864 posts since 7 Oct, 2005, from Auckland

Postby EnGee; Thu May 08, 2014 12:18 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

I had a RE shopping list but after demoing the instruments (PX7, Tres and Parsec) for about 3 weeks now, I don't think I will buy anything :o

There are two main disadvantages about RE instruments for me:
1. They don't add so much to Thor or Malstrom sound. They sit between those instruments and some of the VSTi that I already have like Razor, Monark, Massive ... etc.
2. I can't sell them. I mean what I will do with them if I decide to sell Reason (for any reason) later?

I had a plan to sell all my VST Instruments and Sequencers and substitute them with Reason and Racks. But I realised that it is not the best idea. It is not easy to find substitutes for what I have in Reason's Land, so in the end I decided to look at Reason as a "Super-Duper Workstation".

I'm not against the Rack Extensions idea, but isn't it a waste of effort to reinvent the wheel? I think it would be better if they support the VST/VSTi huge market but with a smart wrapper that still has the Reason's spirit (modularity) by for example supplying every VSTi/VST plugin with some INs and OUTs to/from some main parts in the synth/effect, how? Well, it can be done by the plugin developer and call it Reason's edition. I really see this idea more practical than a whole new SDK from scratch rather than supply a wrapper library for VST developers to integrate their plugins within Reason. Anyway, it is just a fantasy for now.

The solution for me is: I don't sell my VST world and keep using Reason as a separate workstation that can produce a whole song if I want to. I'm still not obliged to depend on it, or just re-wire it if I want both worlds, but I'm not interested in buying REs really.
J4R1O
KVRist
 
380 posts since 1 Jan, 2013

Postby J4R1O; Thu May 08, 2014 2:30 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

kiezum wrote:The main problem with RE's in Reason is that RE's can't be resold. They are just too expensive and non-essential to buy.

Yes, that sucks. Bought iZotope Maximizer about a year ago and now I'd like to sell it, but I can't. :?

They should rethink the whole RE concept.
The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
krucial
KVRist
 
125 posts since 23 Mar, 2012

Postby krucial; Thu May 08, 2014 4:43 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

EnGee wrote:
I'm not against the Rack Extensions idea, but isn't it a waste of effort to reinvent the wheel? I think it would be better if they support the VST/VSTi huge market but with a smart wrapper that still has the Reason's spirit (modularity) by for example supplying every VSTi/VST plugin with some INs and OUTs to/from some main parts in the synth/effect, how? Well, it can be done by the plugin developer and call it Reason's edition.


LOL. This is essentially what RE is doing but in a way more efficient manner. You guys are just gonna have to accept Reason as it is and move on. Besides if they did support VST we would not have many of the great REs that are available now. I don't own any VST and don't care to.
tetsuneko
KVRist
 
494 posts since 20 Apr, 2004, from hki-fi

Postby tetsuneko; Thu May 08, 2014 5:26 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

REs are only there to be used for the CV signal processing improvements. Are you telling me you are seriously considering investing money into any other REs? ;)
User avatar
Numanoid
KVRAF
 
8574 posts since 20 Jan, 2008, from Down on the farm

Postby Numanoid; Thu May 08, 2014 5:37 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

Do you mean you would prefer one RE to get 30 new instruments? Do you know of any VST that is 30 instruments in 1?

That's easy, Reaktor of course.

Not just 30, but hundreds :love:
Sugar beat - beat Vulgaris
krucial
KVRist
 
125 posts since 23 Mar, 2012

Postby krucial; Thu May 08, 2014 5:37 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

tetsuneko wrote:REs are only there to be used for the CV signal processing improvements. Are you telling me you are seriously considering investing money into any other REs? ;)


Yes I will be buying more REs. I am one of those people that don't need every piece of plugin available to make music. But if the RE seems useful I will buy it if not I move on. I have no use for other DAWs Reason is what I am productive with. I don't waste time jumping from one DAW to the next, I just make music. I also don't do the buy and sell business when it comes to music gear plugin or hardware, you are sure to remain broke with that practice. REs are worth the investment, the benefits are obvious. Hint its more than CV.
neverenoughfunk
KVRian
 
567 posts since 6 Feb, 2004

Postby neverenoughfunk; Thu May 08, 2014 6:38 am Re: Reason 7.1 and Rack Extension...

you cant knock Reason... i like Reason very much... compare to version 1 to 5... Reason was a pretty inexpensive way to make music... Reason cost $399... refills are pretty cheap in general... update came about 3.5 years a part... that is not the case today... using Reason today can become pretty expensive very fast... compared to Reason version 1 to 5...

no!!! i do not want vst support in Reason... but let be honest here... rack extensions are inmature i.e. a lot of room to grow... it is sad that the growth process is expensive... i guess for me... i have come to the realization that i cant afford to support more than my main setup... sad but true... hopefully... Reason 7.5/8 will have features worth updating for... for me there is no need for midi-out, audio slicer, group tracks, etc, etc, etc... all i know is... today if i wanted to purchase any VST... i do not have to update my host... inorder to purchase the new acoustic guitar RE... i have to update my host... then again... i could go back to ableton live 4 and all my vst works... and if i brought a vst today... they would work in ableton live 4... i think ableton live 4 is about 7 years old... Reason 6/RE are about 2.5 years old... again mile may vary... but for me... Reason is becoming an expensive tool...
if sarcasm was musical talent... there would be a ton of Mozarts walking around... :tu:
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