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DUNE 2 is out now!!

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

User avatar
PietW.
KVRian
 
679 posts since 6 May, 2010, from Munich, Germany

Postby PietW.; Sun May 11, 2014 7:01 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Ingonator wrote:
PietW. wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGQab-NDAOY

A short Video that shows how you make Wavetables for Dune2 with AudioTerm and a Sample.


I thought about a few possible samples for this and found a few famous quotes from e.h. Obama, Neil armstrong and Apollo 13. Samples longer than 5 seconds seem to be unusable for this (impossible to understand anything then) and shorter is better.

The sample resynthesis feature (which creates a wavetable with 33 single cycles from the original sample) seems to be great to do vocoder like sounds. I have created a test pactch for the new DUNE 2 wavetables where i used the Supersaw feature for a bigger sound (no additional internal or external FXs) and the filter envelope as a mod source for wavetable scanning (Attack part to play the wavezable forward and Decay to play it backwards).

Here are 4 audio demos with different wavetables (single instance of DUNE 2 used):

1.) Obama: "Yes We Can":
DUNE 2 - Yes We Can

2.) Apollo 11 (Neil Armstrong): "Eagle has landed":
DUNE 2 - Eagle Has Landed

3.) Apollo 11(Neil Armstrong) : "It's one small step for a man":
DUNE 2 - One Small Step For A Man

4.) Apollo 13: "Houston, we have a problem":
DUNE 2 - Houston We Have A Problem


Ingo


It is important the sample to tune to 172 Hz. Otherwise, the resynthesis will not function correctly.
User avatar
Chris-S
KVRist
 
452 posts since 10 Nov, 2013, from Germany

Postby Chris-S; Sun May 11, 2014 7:10 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Ingonator wrote:Here are 4 audio demos with different wavetables (single instance of DUNE 2 used)

Cool demo, thanks. :tu:
User avatar
Ingonator
KVRAF
 
8248 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun May 11, 2014 7:20 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

PietW. wrote:
It is important the sample to tune to 172 Hz. Otherwise, the resynthesis will not function correctly.


Hi Piet,

thanks for the hint. Those were first experiments. Will try to optimize in the future.

Anyway those wavetables i have done seem to sound quite nice and/or interesting already while they do not really sound identical to the original sample. They do have a nice "vocoder like" sound. :)

I had used non-edited recordings and especially those from Neil Armstrong or Apollo 13 were not really great quality and quite noisy. Based on that the result is not too bad.


Ingo
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
"Analog vs Digital" for Blofeld
Win 7 64-bit / Live 9 / Cubase 7.5 / Studio One / Reaper / Pro Tools // Blofeld / Pulse 2 / many plugins
User avatar
PietW.
KVRian
 
679 posts since 6 May, 2010, from Munich, Germany

Postby PietW.; Sun May 11, 2014 7:31 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Ingonator wrote:
PietW. wrote:
It is important the sample to tune to 172 Hz. Otherwise, the resynthesis will not function correctly.


Hi Piet,

thanks for the hint. Those were first experiments. Will try to optimize in the future.

Anyway those wavetables i have done seem to sound quite nice and/or interesting already while they do not really sound identical to the original sample. They do have a nice "vocoder like" sound. :)

I had used non-edited recordings and especially those from Neil Armstrong or Apollo 13 were not really great quality and quite noisy. Based on that the result is not too bad.


Ingo


:tu:
mcnoone
KVRAF
 
5364 posts since 8 Oct, 2007, from an inharmonious society

Postby mcnoone; Sun May 11, 2014 8:09 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

While the initial excitement of many synths wears off after some time spent with them. My excitement with Dune2 is growing the more I learn how much it really can do.
Working with layers is much easier and more fun than with Dune1.
The FM module is also much better.
I usually don't like onboard synth effects, but the reverb in Dune2 is much better than any others I've heard.
This synth is really very excellent.
I'm gonna make some killer sounds with this.
User avatar
Krakatau
KVRAF
 
4611 posts since 24 May, 2002, from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH

Postby Krakatau; Sun May 11, 2014 8:57 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators
Kriminal
KVRAF
 
18833 posts since 1 Oct, 2001, from England

Postby Kriminal; Sun May 11, 2014 9:28 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

just finished a CZ wavetable, here's a very simple audio example (doesnt do it justice but im pushed for time) Great for dirty digital sounds 8)

http://soundcloud.com/kriminal-dave2/kr ... 2-cazio-wt
cytospur
KVRian
 
739 posts since 25 Jun, 2002, from London, UK

Postby cytospur; Sun May 11, 2014 9:39 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Krakatau wrote:
ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators


Dune2's FM capabilities are somewhat less limited than you suggest, if you want to think about it for a short while.
Algorithmic tunes: http://snd.sc/o15cKD

DUNE soundbank: http://markholt.moonfruit.com/

Free saturation/distortion VST: https://www.box.com/shared/zdgyouov21
User avatar
Krakatau
KVRAF
 
4611 posts since 24 May, 2002, from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH

Postby Krakatau; Sun May 11, 2014 9:54 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

cytospur wrote:
Krakatau wrote:
ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators


Dune2's FM capabilities are somewhat less limited than you suggest, if you want to think about it for a short while.


:oops:

No,please don't get me wrong in itself it might be relatively limited (just 3 algorithms for instance), but it seems as an obvious policy that the conceptors of this synth tried to keep this instrument as intuitive as possible, the combination of overall synthesis methods and features are extraordinary of both simplicity and flexibility (even though these qualities might usually have been inversely proportional one to another) making a more elaborate FM stage would likely have been prejudicial in that aspect !
Last edited by Krakatau on Sun May 11, 2014 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ingonator
KVRAF
 
8248 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Sun May 11, 2014 9:58 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Another famous citation packed into a wavetable for DUNE 2 (again with Audio Term), this time from Darth Vader (Star Wars):

DUNE 2 - I Am Your Father

Again a single instance of DUNE 2 (with a single oscillator + the "Supersaw") and no internal + external FXs used.
The filter envelope was again used for wavetable scanning but only forward (and not backwards) this time. With the sustain level at maximum the wavetable stays at the last waveform when holding a note.
The Attack of the patch sounds a bit percussive while the sustain stage sounds like a Vox/Choir sound.


Ingo
Waldorf Beta Forum Manager
"Atmospheric Transients" for PPG Wave 3.V
"Analog vs Digital" for Blofeld
Win 7 64-bit / Live 9 / Cubase 7.5 / Studio One / Reaper / Pro Tools // Blofeld / Pulse 2 / many plugins
mcnoone
KVRAF
 
5364 posts since 8 Oct, 2007, from an inharmonious society

Postby mcnoone; Sun May 11, 2014 10:46 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Krakatau wrote:
ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators

You're forgetting that Dune2 has many layers, and that each one could use the FM module to reach an enormous amount of operators all independently tweaked to different settings, and modulated through the mod matrix as well.
So technically it has more FM operators than any FM synth on the market.
:)
blacktomcat666
KVRist
 
160 posts since 8 Aug, 2005, from Braunschweig

Postby blacktomcat666; Sun May 11, 2014 10:50 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

PietW. wrote:It is important the sample to tune to 172 Hz. Otherwise, the resynthesis will not function correctly.


Indeed the quality depends on correct tuning. The sample analysis works as follows: AT does an FFT with 1024 samples (= 512 partials). Then it devides the result into 33 ranges (= the slots or slices).

If the source sample is too short for filling a complete table, it stretches the analysis result. If it's too long, a number of the source data is summarized to a certain slot. This way you don't have to have a certain sample length to fill a complete table. In the latter case the SF_MODE button appears. This button disables the summarizing, which in some cases can produce better results. By the way, the "optimum" would be a sample of 172.265626 Hz fundamental frequency and a length of 33792 samples.

Because the Komplexer engine only uses 64 partials, these 64 partials have to be extracted from the 1024 point FFT. The "tuning keyboard" on the "SAMPLE ANALYSIS OPTIONS II" page sets the root frequency in a range of +/- 1 octave around the ideal value of 172.265625 Hz and the corresponding overtones are weighted and extracted from the raw analysis data. This is quite important on harmonic sounds - on speech or similar "noisy" material it's less important. The arbitrary phases of the source material are recalculated to +/-.

Using a smaller FFT to get the 64 partials directly has two disadvantages:

1.) The FFT window will become more audible, because the resynthesis cannot use overlap/add to cancel out artifacts.
2.) It would be necessary to tune every sample exactly before analysis (which would take more time to find the best settings, since you'd have to do the resynthesis again and again).

The results will often sound very "mechanic" because of the reduction to the 64 partials and the limitation to sine waves. This is far from what most source material consists of. This is also the reason for the different look (and in some cases different sound) of imported single cycles: Everything is analyzed and rebuild from sines only.

One advantage of removing arbitrary phases in wavetable synthesis is that phase shiftings between diffrent slots don't "take over" the pitch: For a short single cycle the audible pitch is defined by it's loop length. But regarding longer samples pitch is also defined as a partial's phase increment over time. This can lead to a detuned sounding wavetable when using a fast lfo or envelope on wavetables which holds sine and consine content (although allowing arbitrary phases would allow a wider range of sounds).

Regarding the need for nomalizing the amplitudes of the partials, especially after using the RANDOM feature: As explained some posts above the audio output has to be limited to a certain dynamic range. This means that the amplitudes of a slice have to be recalculated to "what you hear" - in most cases they have to be lowered.

Without limiting a saw wave's amplitude would be up to 50 times the amplitude of a single sine. Unfortunately the proportion of partial and wave amplitudes depends on polarity and partial frequency, this is what makes handling amplitudes so difficult. Futher analyzed samples have to be treated differently from a simple list of single cycles and it took me months to get at least this - sometimes confusing - solution.
User avatar
Krakatau
KVRAF
 
4611 posts since 24 May, 2002, from Bobo-dioulasso\BF__Geneva/CH

Postby Krakatau; Sun May 11, 2014 11:10 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

mcnoone wrote:
Krakatau wrote:
ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators

You're forgetting that Dune2 has many layers, and that each one could use the FM module to reach an enormous amount of operators all independently tweaked to different settings, and modulated through the mod matrix as well.
So technically it has more FM operators than any FM synth on the market.
:)


ok..my bad if it sounded as a negative comment (at a critical moment...sorry i did not realise),because i didn't intended it that way
i 'm totally confident of the flexibility of this instrument (i simply wouldn't have bought it !) but do you really mean that you could connect voices through mod matrix to virtually create bigger FM algorithm ?
User avatar
digitalboytn
KVRian
 
658 posts since 7 Dec, 2008, from Global Cowboy

Postby digitalboytn; Sun May 11, 2014 11:16 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

mcnoone wrote:While the initial excitement of many synths wears off after some time spent with them. My excitement with Dune2 is growing the more I learn how much it really can do.



:tu:
Sorry - I don't use auto-tune....
cytospur
KVRian
 
739 posts since 25 Jun, 2002, from London, UK

Postby cytospur; Sun May 11, 2014 11:18 am Re: DUNE 2 is out now!!

Krakatau wrote:
mcnoone wrote:
Krakatau wrote:
ragout wrote:How would you rate the FM capability of this synt? Better than others? I am not a very experienced FM user and I wonder how good Dune 2 is with that.


Rather limited and conceived as an additional synthesis method, IMO, The smallest FM based synth would have at the least 4 operators (with often a choice of different waveforms)...

Usually 6 or even 8 operators

You're forgetting that Dune2 has many layers, and that each one could use the FM module to reach an enormous amount of operators all independently tweaked to different settings, and modulated through the mod matrix as well.
So technically it has more FM operators than any FM synth on the market.
:)


ok..my bad if it sounded as a negative comment (at a critical moment...sorry i did not realise),because i didn't intended it that way
i 'm totally confident of the flexibility of this instrument (i simply wouldn't have bought it !) but do you really mean that you could connect voices through mod matrix to virtually create bigger FM algorithm ?


Try using osc 1, 2 and or 3 to modulate any of the FM parameters for a start. Use the same osc inputs in the mod matrix to modulate other osc levels to give mixed fm/rm/am. That is all within one voice!
Algorithmic tunes: http://snd.sc/o15cKD

DUNE soundbank: http://markholt.moonfruit.com/

Free saturation/distortion VST: https://www.box.com/shared/zdgyouov21
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