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Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Anything about hardware musical instruments.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4036 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Mon May 12, 2014 8:22 pm Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

itoa wrote:As said above:

Update: "Amp and Mod envelope now climbs towards sustain level as the decay knob is turned upwards while holding a key."

Isn't this like: sorry we were wrong and now it's somehow fixed?


So first, I don't own one and I've never played on one so I'm certainly not commenting from experience, but, to me, that sounds like a bug fix. It sounds to me like if you were holding a key and adjusting the decay that the sound would stay at the same level or continue to drop until you released the note and tried again. By having the note climb it responds as if the note that you're holding would have been played at the new (increasing) decay time setting and will sustain at full volume should you turn the decay knob all the way to the right.

I could be completely wrong, but it doesn't sound to me like they've changed the behavior of the envelopes other than to improve the interaction while programming a sound.
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7176 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Tue May 13, 2014 8:11 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

ghettosynth wrote:I don't think that it's fair to say that they think that their customers are "idiots", but the average keyboard player uses presets and just twiddles the knobs just a little bit. I would hope that they know their customer base, although, perhaps if they did, they never would have made the G1/G2.


I don't think anyone's saying Clava thinks it's customers are idiots. (are they?) I think we're just saying that they sometimes seem a bit confused about their customers. I agree with all that you said in your post, but it all becomes somewhat moot when you consider the price of the A1. I don't think we're complaining that it's a bad keyboard. Certainly not bad sounding. Just missing what many consider crucial features that should be standard on an instrument in that price range.

Based on what you're saying, why don't they just release a version of the L4 that's got the same synth engine but with 8 voice polyphany and timbres and 8 macro knobs for tweaking presets. Want to make your own preset from scratch? Use the free downloadable software editor. Price it at $999 for the keyboard version and $599 for the rack version. I'd buy that.

And I'm a potential customer that does use VSTs, though I am always looking for a sonic leg up and who can resist a red box with blinking lights on it? :hyper: I'll spend money and reserve space for something that gives me better sound quality... or even unique sonic possibilities, but I also need to have a full complement of features that are found standard in a $169 plug in.
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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pinkpanther
KVRist
 
148 posts since 30 Jun, 2013

Postby pinkpanther; Tue May 13, 2014 8:40 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

It's amazing how many talented engineers are here thinking they can do better than Clavia staff. And what's the point of comparing real hardware to poop sounding synths?
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue May 13, 2014 8:56 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

zerocrossing wrote:I don't think anyone's saying Clava thinks it's customers are idiots. (are they?) I think we're just saying that they sometimes seem a bit confused about their customers.

I said that I think someone at Clavia thinks their customers are idiots. Based on their absolutely idiotic decision to go with ADR/ASR and omit ADSR. I know about Clavia's history, the great modular series (especially G2), and Rob Hordijk's awesome and extensive work in general. I had owned a NL2x rack for a long time. I've checked out everything else, and I think Nord Lead 4 is a great synth and overall product. A1 is a huge disappointment in too many ways, not just sound-wise (NL4 is much better), but feature-wise. I think it's a truly idiotic instrument in general aimed at a crowd that doesn't really exist. Sure, many people are "preset users", but the restricted architecture they try to show off as "simplified but powerful" only complicates things and severely limits users' possibilities, and it's just a hugely unsuccessful attempt to dumb things down for what someone thinks is a super dumb user base.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
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pinkpanther
KVRist
 
148 posts since 30 Jun, 2013

Postby pinkpanther; Tue May 13, 2014 9:36 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Shy seems well aware of A1 worldwide sales :hihi: Please... most musicians are fine with a keyboard, a mod wheel, a pitch wheel, a filter knob and some presets. Modular fans and sound designers are a minority.
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue May 13, 2014 10:24 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Good that you make yourself laugh, but I have to tell you that you're not funny. I have no idea about their sales and I was writing from a musician's perspective, not a "sound designer" or whatever bullshit people call musicians who use a synthesizer as their musical instrument.

A fundamental and basic thing like ADSR envelope controls is not unlike basic, fundamental controls of various acoustic musical instruments which every player has to use. Even if you're a "preset-only" user who only "performs live", you still usually have to tweak attack, decay, sustain and release accordingly, in a basic synth of this type. I've never seen anyone who never tweaks ADSR values, it's often the first thing everyone does, except filter tweaking. If you've ever been restricted to ADR or ASR, you know just how incredibly frustrating it is when you can't even get a useful envelope.

Clavia's A1 is a huge failure not just for "sound designers", it's a failure as a musical instrument within its category of musical instruments. You don't like me saying this? Fine, but if you think my opinion represents something other than a common musician's perspective, then you just don't have a clue.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
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pinkpanther
KVRist
 
148 posts since 30 Jun, 2013

Postby pinkpanther; Tue May 13, 2014 10:29 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Boo. I'm going back to play some tunes with my Casio PT-1
itoa
KVRist
 
248 posts since 3 Sep, 2009, from Poland

Postby itoa; Tue May 13, 2014 10:41 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Shy: You are sooo right. I posted this question because I couldn't believe when I saw this. This is market pauperisation. Nord Modular, Andromeda and dozens of great synths are dead.. Instead we have Volca's, Aira and... A1 :).
giq
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue May 13, 2014 11:12 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

On the other hand, there are also very good synths, mainly by Studio Electronics, Moog, Oberheim and Waldorf. Also companies like MFB, Vermona, Arturia, Novation, Korg (MS-20 Mini, not the other BS) have very nice synths and generally the price/feature ratio is better than ever. I think things have never been this good as far as "mini synths" go, and you can also get really great modular synths nowadays, good module availability mainly from Synthesizers.com, MOTM, ModCan and Doepfer. Just nothing like Clavia's Nord Modular.

pinkpanther wrote:Boo. I'm going back to play some tunes with my Casio PT-1

I feel old now :). The tremolo in the sounds made it feel like a "real instrument", it was really fun.
Last edited by Shy on Tue May 13, 2014 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
itoa
KVRist
 
248 posts since 3 Sep, 2009, from Poland

Postby itoa; Tue May 13, 2014 11:19 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Yes this is mainly due to boutique companies, where passion comes first, not money (Studio Electronics, Analogue Solutions). Waldorf ? Hmmm... You mean Q, Microwave or Pulse 1? Thumbs up for Moog and Korg (MS-20 and announced ARP clone).
giq
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue May 13, 2014 11:24 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

I mean Pulse 2, very good features and exceptional filter, a really nice synth despite the various DCO-related limitations and audible artifacts, an actually -musical- instrument.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
itoa
KVRist
 
248 posts since 3 Sep, 2009, from Poland

Postby itoa; Tue May 13, 2014 11:26 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Have you tried an old Pulse 1? You should :)
giq
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue May 13, 2014 11:32 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Yes, used it. But hey, most importantly, they all have that amazing ADSR control that was introduced over 75 years ago!
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
itoa
KVRist
 
248 posts since 3 Sep, 2009, from Poland

Postby itoa; Tue May 13, 2014 11:38 am Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

Lol! Hell yes!

although, in 80% of my presets ADSD is just enough. btw. I like idea of ADSRD (don't remember where I've seen this).. It's ADSR multiplied by long decayed curve - this seems the most natural. Sometimes miss additional click at the beginning. (APDSR ? ;)
giq
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4036 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue May 13, 2014 7:28 pm Re: Nord Lead A1 - Why ADR envelopes?

zerocrossing wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:I don't think that it's fair to say that they think that their customers are "idiots",
but the average keyboard player uses presets and just twiddles the knobs just a little bit. I would hope that they know their customer base, although, perhaps if they did, they never would have made the G1/G2.


I don't think anyone's saying Clava thinks it's customers are idiots. (are they?)


Shy did, specifically, he even agrees above.

I think we're just saying that they sometimes seem a bit confused about their customers. I agree with all that you said in your post, but it all becomes somewhat moot when you consider the price of the A1. I don't think we're complaining that it's a bad keyboard. Certainly not bad sounding. Just missing what many consider crucial features that should be standard on an instrument in that price range.

Based on what you're saying, why don't they just release a version of the L4 that's got the same synth engine but with 8 voice polyphany and timbres and 8 macro knobs for tweaking presets. Want to make your own preset from scratch? Use the free downloadable software editor. Price it at $999 for the keyboard version and $599 for the rack version. I'd buy that.


So first, I agree that I think in the past they have not understood their customers well. Like I said, I think that if they did, they would never have made the modulars. I'm not so convinced, however, that they don't know their customers now. I don't think that customers want "macro" knobs. It makes them feel cheated, I think that what they want is a full synthesizer that they can't make a mistake on and they want it to sound fantastic. Maybe I'm wrong here, time will tell, but I've seen the attitude before.

To tell you the truth I have NEVER understood who pays that much money for a fixed architecture VA keyboard. The only reason that I purchased the G1 was because there was no other competing digital modular at the time with the exception of the creamware stuff which did not seem as sleek and straightforward as the G1.

And I'm a potential customer that does use VSTs, though I am always looking for a sonic leg up and who can resist a red box with blinking lights on it?


Well, there is that.

:hyper: I'll spend money and reserve space for something that gives me better sound quality... or even unique sonic possibilities, but I also need to have a full complement of features that are found standard in a $169 plug in.


Maybe you're right and this will bomb. Or maybe they've figured out that synth nerds aren't where the market is at. I bought the G1 sight unseen, untouched, un-returnable, and not at a great discount, because I wanted it the day the damn thing came out. I watched the magazine ads and they pumped me up, I was ready for standalone digital modular and it became the center of my live rig for quite a while.

When it came in, and I was waiting at the store to take delivery so that I could use it for a show that weekend, I almost had to wait until monday because the main store didn't think that it was a keyboard. My guy called and they said "no, no keyboards came in today", he had to get pushy to get them to look for something from Clavia. "Oh that thing?, that's a keyboard?" Who in their right mind pays $2K plus for a keyboard that you can tuck under your arm, box included? A lot of people bought them, and a lot of people were confused by them. The mainstream musician had no interest. Clavia tried again with the G2, but I think that after that they figured out that it wasn't the limitations that they thought that limited sales, it was simply that the instruments were not what "most" musicians wanted.
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