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Mixing with the DAW's plugins

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

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Mister Natural
KVRian
 
1307 posts since 28 Oct, 2007, from michigan

Postby Mister Natural; Thu May 29, 2014 6:31 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

+1 FWIW : LIVE 9's native plugs are freakin awesome. Special shout-out to the included EQ8, Glue compressor, Filter delay, Vocorder.

as mentioned above - learn to use the "free" plugs included with your host of choice, learn them inside & out. After then; if you're still not satified with the available palette; buy something after-market.
an expert on what it feels like to be me
& you are who you google

https://soundcloud.com/mrnatural-1/tracks
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9492 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu May 29, 2014 6:59 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:'I will solve my mixing problems by buying per se' vs 'you must learn to mix tip-top with any [deficient] tools'? Maybe there is a middle ground.


Of course this is right, there is always a middle ground, but, the tools in cubase 5 are certainly sufficient to obtain a good recording. The essence of my agreement, however, is that buying stuff to fix a problem is so rarely a meaningful solution that it's reasonable to discard it generally as a way to solve problems, especially for beginners.

What did we do before convolution reverbs? We just recorded in a space that had the sound that we wanted, or, we put a mic and a speaker in a space that had the sound that we wanted. Is this the origin of the words "send" and "return" as opposed to simply FX in/out on consoles?
As a way to solve problems? No, I have even said as much in the last couple days, throwing money at a problem rather than solving it with what's at hand, I don't advise it. But in fact I bought a better way to mix for myself than the things in Cubase 5. And in terms of a compressor or MB Comp, it's all about the interface that clicked with me. I'm guilty of not sussing the things it has, I copped out, I bought my way out of my incompetence, fine.

So, general vs specific, I see that particular quality of statement too often here, 'if you're any good you make great records with any tools' and it justifies being someone with no buying power as much as it does anything else IME. As someone with a host of shite guitars over years, it doesn't ring as true as it might seem on the screen.

What did I do before this whole technology? I never got a good recording, that's what. Even in a stellar room, which I stole once. When I could con someone into buying studio time, the studio had teh good reverbs, end of story.
I think there is much value in not having shit and failing to get a good recording, so I came to DAW with some awareness. But it didn't help me love that convo verb in C5.
itneveris
KVRist
 
262 posts since 28 Nov, 2012

Postby itneveris; Thu May 29, 2014 7:40 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Uncle E wrote:
itneveris wrote:Truth is, if you cant get a good mix with stock plugins(aside from just not having an effect), then you just cant mix well, period.

The plugins DO NOT, WILL NOT, AND CANNOT transform your mixes. It is the engineer, not the tools. Many famous and successful mixers use stock plugins.


FWIW, it's a relatively recent phenomenon and stock plugins were truly awful for many years. Studio One's stock plugins are better than those of some other DAW's. Even now, Maschine's stock plugins are pretty bad (though V2 is a big improvement in this regard) and Cubase's stock plugins are either really excellent or really terrible, with nothing in between, IMO.


Fari enough, actually.

And I agree with the above about the Ableton plugs, I learned on those for probably an entire year before I started using other plugins, and less visual ones.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4072 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Thu May 29, 2014 9:08 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

jancivil wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:'I will solve my mixing problems by buying per se' vs 'you must learn to mix tip-top with any [deficient] tools'? Maybe there is a middle ground.


Of course this is right, there is always a middle ground, but, the tools in cubase 5 are certainly sufficient to obtain a good recording. The essence of my agreement, however, is that buying stuff to fix a problem is so rarely a meaningful solution that it's reasonable to discard it generally as a way to solve problems, especially for beginners.

What did we do before convolution reverbs? We just recorded in a space that had the sound that we wanted, or, we put a mic and a speaker in a space that had the sound that we wanted. Is this the origin of the words "send" and "return" as opposed to simply FX in/out on consoles?
As a way to solve problems? No, I have even said as much in the last couple days, throwing money at a problem rather than solving it with what's at hand, I don't advise it. But in fact I bought a better way to mix for myself than the things in Cubase 5. And in terms of a compressor or MB Comp, it's all about the interface that clicked with me. I'm guilty of not sussing the things it has, I copped out, I bought my way out of my incompetence, fine.

So, general vs specific, I see that particular quality of statement too often here, 'if you're any good you make great records with any tools' and it justifies being someone with no buying power as much as it does anything else IME. As someone with a host of shite guitars over years, it doesn't ring as true as it might seem on the screen.


Yeah, but I didn't say that. We're talking about, in general, a set of tools that are far better than what many (most?) of us had in hardware studios not too many years ago. I think that the tools in Cubase 5 are sufficient to finish any recording that someone comes on to KVR and asks other posters if buying more shit will make them sound more professional. I think that, in general, it's fair to say to that person, probably not. If they can be more specific, then maybe better advice is in order.

I can certainly enumerate a number of purchases that really turned on lights for me, actually impacted how I performed and sounded, and made me realize where I was wasting money. Cheap dynamic mics, as just one example, crappy PA speakers for another.

I'm not at all saying that ANYONE can make great records with ANY tools. I think that it's probably true that SOME people can make great records with ANY tools and that MOST people who have the potential to make a "great" record can do it with GOOD tools and I don't think that it's unfair to call the basic tools that come with most daws good.
yessongs
KVRian
 
831 posts since 9 Feb, 2013, from dallas tx

Postby yessongs; Thu May 29, 2014 10:00 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

compared to sonar everyone else is using junk. just look at all they give you

MELODYNE!!!!

PRO CHANNEL STUFF
BREVERB SONAR
Tape Emulator
Console Emulator
Softube Saturation Knob
QuadCurve EQ
Tube Saturation
PC4K S-Type Bus Compressor
PC76 U-Type Compressor

Sonitus Compressor
Sonitus Delay
Sonitus Equalizer
Sonitus Gate
Sonitus Modulator
Sonitus Multiband
Sonitus Phase
Sonitus Reverb
Sonitus Surround
Sonitus Surround Compressor
Sonitus Wahwah

TH2 Producer
PX-64 Percussion Strip
VX-64 Vocal Strip
TL-64 Tube Leveler
TS-64 Transient Shaper
Tone2 Bifilter2
Analog TrackBox

LP-64 Multiband Compressor
LP-64 EQ
Perfect Space Convolution Reverb
Boost 11
Channel Tools

AliasFactor
Modfilter
Chorus/Flanger
HF Exciter
Classic Phaser
Compressor/Gate
Para-Q
Tempo Delay


Nomad Factory Stuff
:
Brickwall BW-2S
Compressor CP-2S
DeEsser DS-2S
Gate Expander GX622
Compressor FA770
Limiter LM2S
Analog Chorus CH2S
Analog Phaser APH2S
Oilcan Echo TLE2S
Tempo Delay 3D
Stereo Imager ST2S
Valve Driver ADR2S
Equalizer BQ2S
Equalizer BX2S
Equalizer GEQ12
Equalizer PEQ2B
Equalizer PEQ5B
Equalizer PEQ322
BlueVerb RV-2080

plus then throw in their instruments and its all over but the whinning
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9492 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri May 30, 2014 2:37 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:
jancivil wrote:'I will solve my mixing problems by buying per se' vs 'you must learn to mix tip-top with any [deficient] tools'? Maybe there is a middle ground.
Of course this is right, there is always a middle ground, but, the tools in cubase 5 are certainly sufficient to obtain a good recording. The essence of my agreement, however, is that buying stuff to fix a problem is so rarely a meaningful solution that it's reasonable to discard it generally as a way to solve problems, especially for beginners.
As a way to solve problems? No, I have even said as much in the last couple days, throwing money at a problem rather than solving it with what's at hand, I don't advise it.

[but] general vs specific, I see that particular quality of statement too often here, 'if you're any good you make great records with any tools' and it justifies being someone with no buying power as much as it does anything else IME. As someone with a host of shite guitars over years, it doesn't ring as true as it might seem on the screen.

Yeah, but I didn't say that.

I'm not at all saying that ANYONE can make great records with ANY tools.
I know. But as we see someone went with
Truth is, if you cant get a good mix with stock plugins(aside from just not having an effect), then you just cant mix well, period.

The plugins DO NOT, WILL NOT, AND CANNOT transform your mixes. It is the engineer, not the tools. Many famous and successful mixers use stock plugins.
But [my use of the] plugins I bought totally did. also, too
ghettosynth wrote: purchases that really turned on lights for me, actually impacted how I performed and sounded
So. What is 'a good mix'? Even you asked had I sent a thing out to a mastering engineer. I never do. One reason is, I have the tools to get a finished sound. Cubase 5 does not even have an exciter. Can I get what this person believes is 'a good mix' without an exciter? 1) I doubt I would agree with that guy's "good". 2) I would rather have the tools. OTOH if it's this:
ghettosynth wrote:I think that the tools in Cubase 5 are sufficient to finish any recording that someone comes on to KVR and asks other posters if buying more shit will make them sound more professional. I think that, in general, it's fair to say to that person, probably not. If they can be more specific, then maybe better advice is in order.
We are, again pretty much in agreement. The reason I bothered to gather my thoughts is the ubiquity of that 'Truth is you can't mix' quality of comment here at KVR.
Kevin Deas
KVRist
 
179 posts since 29 Aug, 2008

Postby Kevin Deas; Fri May 30, 2014 2:53 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

The source material is paramount. You can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear..no matter whose plugins you use.
highkoo
KVRAF
 
3094 posts since 25 Jun, 2004

Postby highkoo; Fri May 30, 2014 2:56 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

I did this with only FL and freeware-

https://soundcloud.com/highkoo/tengigga ... -w-aricrey

Dunno how that mix rates really, but either way I think any deficiency comes down to me, and not the tools. :shrug:
It wasnt a bad experience being limited, but I also cant say I didnt miss using my regular bits.
I think that its true that 'tools dont matter'. Any result can be achieved. But in some cases getting there might be easier/simpler with other tools.
I missed my ol' EQs and Compressors, but that was probably just in my head. :hihi:
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keyman_sam
KVRAF
 
3396 posts since 7 Mar, 2005

Postby keyman_sam; Fri May 30, 2014 3:26 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

I think even though the DAW plugins are great, the difference between a commercial one and the DAW plugin is, the commercial one comes with excellent presets that are great to go off the bat.

I put IK Multimedia's VintComp 670 in any vocal and that vocal just springs to life (with the various presets in it). Then I can tweak the preset to my liking.

This solves two things - 1). Producers can focus on producing instead of mixing. Slap a plugin and wham-bam it sounds better. There's no need to put 10x the effort when 1x the effort gets the job done. 2). It prevents you from being discouraged by a sh*tty sound just cos you don't have the know-how just yet. Once you get a fairly decent sound then you know you can play around with any compressor to get that sound.

Once you have a few commercial plugins, you will no longer blame the plugins (as opposed to having freewares). "This sounds bad. It must be my doing or lack of." :D
Alesis Fusion 6HD for sale/trade - Pm me!

Sample Libraries for Shortcircuit
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UltimateOutsider
KVRist
 
344 posts since 4 Oct, 2009, from Portland, OR

Postby UltimateOutsider; Fri May 30, 2014 4:34 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Even though I've been making music with computers for a very long time, the first time I ever worked with a modern DAW (as opposed to a purely MIDI based sequencer) was around the Cubase 5/Ableton Live 8/Reaper 3 era. (So I think I missed the period when stock plugs were across-the-board bad, if that was ever the case.)

I started learning third-party plugins (both effects and instruments) right away because I was auditioning different DAWs and the Ableton devices, for example, only work in Live and many of Cubase's bundled plugins only work in Cubase... I wanted to learn skills and use tools that weren't tied to a given DAW.

I've pretty much settled into Cubase for the long haul, and I've found myself using the bundled tools and effects more and more. (And some of the special plugins that come with WaveLab as well.) I do have a track planned that will use only Cubase instruments and effects, but I have several other things in the queue before that.

When I buy or use a third-party product now, it's because it does one or both of the following:
  • Lets me do something I can already do now more easily, or more logically than I can with my existing tools. For example Waves H-EQ has a built-in virtual keyboard where you can choose a center frequency by selecting a note. You don't need a feature like that to target a given frequency (it's nothing you can't work out in a worksheet), but it's really convenient for certain purposes.
  • Does one specific thing very well. I'm an engineer by nature, and when I see really complicated interfaces, I can spend a LOT of time learning each little feature individually (and then never using most of them). If there's a tool or instrument that I can count on for a specific thing with a minimum of tweaking, I'll use it. Monark for fat bass. BC FreqAnalyst for spectrum checking. CamelSpace for trance gate. (etc.)

keyman_sam wrote:Once you have a few commercial plugins, you will no longer blame the plugins (as opposed to having freewares). "This sounds bad. It must be my doing or lack of." :D

I actually think it's a good lesson to learn, and something that you can only really gain from experience, and by always striving to develop your skills and understanding. When I use third-party tools, it's because they help me more efficiently translate the music in my head to a finished recording- it's not because I think they make my stuff more "professional" or have some kind of measurable sonic qualities that bundled plugins can't deliver.
Orbit-50
KVRian
 
994 posts since 28 Jun, 2005, from La La Land

Postby Orbit-50; Fri May 30, 2014 5:25 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

There is no way in hell you will ever be able to pull a mix worth half a shit from stock DAW plugins! That's my opinion!



And I cannot be flamed for saying this because the rules clearly state that "Any member on the KVR forum can not be flamed for their opinions or beliefs on stock DAW plugins" So then there! :hihi:


.-.
Intel Core i7, Cubase 7.5, Ableton Live 9+Push, FL Studio 11, Wavelab 8.5, Halion 5, NI Komplete 9, Waves, Nexus 2, All VPS, Spire, Sylenth1, FXpansion, Alchemy, Waldorf Largo, Synthmaster, Ohm Force, GForce, D16 Group, ArtsAcoustic, FabFilter and more..
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6497 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri May 30, 2014 5:26 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

jancivil wrote:The reason I bothered to gather my thoughts is the ubiquity of that 'Truth is you can't mix' quality of comment here at KVR.


Yes, it's neither positive nor realistic. The most successful engineers in the world use the best gear, there's a reason for that.

Personally, I wasted most of my 20's trying to get great results out of crap gear. I wish someone had sat me down and said "you don't need a lot of gear, just make sure that whatever you use is great." One could easily mix with built-in DAW plugins but it sure does make it easier and faster to get quality results when you've got one great EQ, one great compressor, and one great reverb.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6497 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri May 30, 2014 5:36 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

highkoo wrote:Dunno how that mix rates really, but either way I think any deficiency comes down to me, and not the tools. :shrug:


Listening to this mix, I'm guessing there are some gear-related changes that would make a difference. Would you like input?
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highkoo
KVRAF
 
3094 posts since 25 Jun, 2004

Postby highkoo; Fri May 30, 2014 5:45 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Always! :)
There is some weird stereo mess going on in parts of that, I remember...
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6497 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri May 30, 2014 5:52 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

highkoo wrote:Always! :)
There is some weird stereo mess going on in parts of that, I remember...


Yes, that and the balance. The one gear-related thing that I imagine would make the biggest difference is your monitoring. I'm guessing you're not hearing the problems and obviously you can't work on them if you can't hear them.
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