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Mixing with the DAW's plugins

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

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ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
3867 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri May 30, 2014 7:27 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Uncle E wrote:
jancivil wrote:The reason I bothered to gather my thoughts is the ubiquity of that 'Truth is you can't mix' quality of comment here at KVR.


Yes, it's neither positive nor realistic. The most successful engineers in the world use the best gear, there's a reason for that.


Yes, the use the best gear, but that isn't why they're the best engineers in the world. The hidden implication that is part and parcel with these types of threads and drives a lot of people to just spend money is that buying more gear will NECESSARILY improve mixes. I don't think so.

A lot of good/great records have been made with very limited gear, especially EDM records.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that you should think about your selection of tools and supplement where YOU need them, but I'm not buying for a second that everyone NEEDS more than what comes with their DAW.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6311 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri May 30, 2014 9:15 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote:Yes, the use the best gear, but that isn't why they're the best engineers in the world.


It's a part of it.

The hidden implication that is part and parcel with these types of threads and drives a lot of people to just spend money is that buying more gear will NECESSARILY improve mixes. I don't think so.


The reason you use analog synths is the same reason someone else uses whatever it is that they choose to use. I'm sure you could make perfectly acceptable music without your analog synths, does that mean they don't NECESSARILY improve the sound of your music? If not, why do you use them? Whatever your answer is, I'd wager that you enjoy making music more with them and that's enough of a reason in my book.

Also, as Jancivil said, the other hidden implication is that if you can't mix with a DAW's built-in plugins, that's your limitation and not a limitation of the software. This is disingenuous, people who use better stuff DO have an easier time mixing and DO have an easier time sounding good.

A lot of good/great records have been made with very limited gear, especially EDM records.


Yes. However, the very best sounding EDM, IMO, such as VCMG and Daft Punk, was not. I don't think there's anything better sounding than the VCMG Project and that was the creme de la creme of analog synths mixed almost 100% through UAD plugins.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that you should think about your selection of tools and supplement where YOU need them, but I'm not buying for a second that everyone NEEDS more than what comes with their DAW.


Of course not. All I'm saying is that I wish I'd made better choices about how I worked when I was younger instead of trying to scrape by with the least I could get away with. It's an especially ridiculous stance to take these days when excellent plugins are so cheap. Look at the Elysia Mpressor, it's $79 right now and it's better than any DAW's built-in compressor that I've tried, plus it's flexible enough that it could almost serve as someone's only compressor. Even the plugins that come free with Computer Music are better than what's in most DAW's, why would you work so hard to sway people against using them?
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hibidy
KVRAF
 
40528 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Fri May 30, 2014 10:19 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Plugin snob here..... :hihi:

I dunno. I think studio one has some of the best (other than stuff like ampire and presence which are not too good imho) and you SHOULD be able to do a good mix inside of it.

However, the stock stuff is not necessarily the best way to get from point a to b. That is a matter of taste, but that is how I see it.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
3867 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Fri May 30, 2014 10:41 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Uncle E wrote:
The hidden implication that is part and parcel with these types of threads and drives a lot of people to just spend money is that buying more gear will NECESSARILY improve mixes. I don't think so.


The reason you use analog synths is the same reason someone else uses whatever it is that they choose to use. I'm sure you could make perfectly acceptable music without your analog synths, does that mean they don't NECESSARILY improve the sound of your music? If not, why do you use them? Whatever your answer is, I'd wager that you enjoy making music more with them and that's enough of a reason in my book.


Hold the phone now, I use great analogue synths because I'm a consumer and I like to buy cool shit that's fun to play with. Ok, for every synth that I have there was some justification process about why I needed it and how it would improve my music. Some actually did, most were just a part of the lesson along the way and I'd love to go back in time and tell my old self what not to buy and what to buy in its place.

I'll tell you what I think that the most important lesson that I learned was, though, it's that new shit takes your time to learn so you have to be able to tell really quickly whether or not it's going to really do something for you. My MO these days is "I DON'T NEED IT", I already buy plenty of stuff because I want it so there's no point in trying to add a false "NEED" into the equation.

I was way more productive musically with a DX-21, a Seil DK-80 and an RX-21 than I am today. In fact, it was the quest for better drums that started the process and by the time the RX-21 became a 909 I'd spent $10K+ on various synths and started to learn the hard lesson that more shit means more time and money integrating it into your workflow.

Also, as Jancivil said, the other hidden implication is that if you can't mix with a DAW's built-in plugins, that's your limitation and not a limitation of the software. This is disingenuous, people who use better stuff DO have an easier time mixing and DO have an easier time sounding good.


No doubt, but now we're moving the bookends. It's a different question, I thought that the question was "can you", now you're changing it to "is it easier and more fun?"

A lot of good/great records have been made with very limited gear, especially EDM records.


Yes. However, the very best sounding EDM, IMO, such as VCMG and Daft Punk, was not. I don't think there's anything better sounding than the VCMG Project and that was the creme de la creme of analog synths mixed almost 100% through UAD plugins.


Again, you're moving the bookends, the question was "professional", not "best sounding", people have made "professional" recordings with pre-RE reason.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that you should think about your selection of tools and supplement where YOU need them, but I'm not buying for a second that everyone NEEDS more than what comes with their DAW.


Of course not. All I'm saying is that I wish I'd made better choices about how I worked when I was younger instead of trying to scrape by with the least I could get away with. It's an especially ridiculous stance to take these days when excellent plugins are so cheap. Look at the Elysia Mpressor, it's $79 right now and it's better than any DAW's built-in compressor that I've tried, plus it's flexible enough that it could almost serve as someone's only compressor. Even the plugins that come free with Computer Music are better than what's in most DAW's, why would you work so hard to sway people against using them?


The OP asked:

i foud only tutorials using generally Waves plugins.
So my question is : How did people used to do before there was these plugins? is it possible to make a correct and professional mix with the DAW's built in plugins?


That is the question that I answered. I think that the answer is still yes. If the OP had asked "Would I have more fun making music if I supplemented these plugins with others, but not necessarily waves?", I would have answered differently.

I would have suggested exactly what you're suggesting or what I've suggested before. Get a copy of CM magazine, start working, and then figure out if there are other things that would make it more fun. I think that Reaktor + Kontakt and the associated libraries justify Komplete for almost anyone making music ITB. I think that Diva is pretty much necessary for anyone who wants the best ITB analogue sound available today.

I picked up the Waves Transistor Bundle stuff as singles during the big sale last year purely because I wanted to try some waves stuff to see what all the fuss was about. I'm not running out to buy more waves stuff today, but I do use those plugins, I don't regret spending a few bucks on them. They are totally NOT necessary, however, and I don't even know if they really make things better, I just like them.

YMMV.
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Karten
KVRian
 
1107 posts since 1 Mar, 2010, from Paris, FR

Postby Karten; Fri May 30, 2014 11:03 pm Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Between last December and last week, I mixed only using Cubase 5 stock plugins, DC8C (occasionally) and Ozone 4 on the master.
It was fine but a little tedious regarding frequency management and other stuff.
Then last week, I bought the entire FabFilter range from the market place and does that make a difference!
While my new mixes won't necessarily sound better, having such great GUIs to work with has certainly improved my workflow a lot.
What I mean is that buying third-party plugins is not always just about having a better sound.
Vincent @ Ghostwave Audio - Latest bank: Cellspace vol.2 for Synplant
Permanent 10% discount with the code "KVR10".
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djscorb
KVRist
 
328 posts since 3 May, 2007, from UK

Postby djscorb; Sat May 31, 2014 1:43 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

I think it's pretty clear what that the OP wants to know.

However, a better wording of his question might be;

"Can I make professional mixes using only stock DAW and FREE plugins or do i need to spend a lot of money?"

The answer to that would clearly be yes you can get pro results without spending extra cash on plugins.

Some of the most essential and useful plugins to me are free; s(m)exoscope, SPAN, MSED, TDR FB comp II, Slick EQ, the computer music freebies, Limiter6 and I'm sure others have their favourites as well.

Pensado just did an ITL on freebies that he is currently digging, so obviously they are bringing something useful to his workflow that nothing else is. And that is despite having access to pretty much any high end hardware and plugins out there.

Cheers

Scorb
I once thought I had mono for an entire year. It turned out I was just really bored...
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6311 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Sat May 31, 2014 7:32 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote:Again, you're moving the bookends, the question was "professional", not "best sounding", people have made "professional" recordings with pre-RE reason.


I see, you and I are defining "professional" differently. You seem to be defining it as anything that has been offered for sale, which is the accurate definition. I was defining it as anything that's been on the Billboard 100 charts, which I think is closer to what the OP was asking for, even if those weren't the words they used. I would venture to guess that less than .001% (if any at all) of music ever on the Billboard 100 was mixed solely with pre-RE reason.
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jancivil
KVRAF
 
9417 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sat May 31, 2014 7:51 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote: I'm not buying for a second that everyone NEEDS more than what comes with their DAW.
Well, I wouldn't buy any argument that states 'everyone NEEDS x''. :shrug:
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9417 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sat May 31, 2014 8:03 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

djscorb wrote:I think it's pretty clear what that the OP wants to know.

However, a better wording of his question might be;

"Can I make professional mixes using only stock DAW and FREE plugins or do i need to spend a lot of money?"

The answer to that would clearly be yes you can get pro results without spending extra cash on plugins.
My honest answer will be, "I don't know if you can get pro results to begin with". And 'pro results', what is that exactly? So as a thread, it becomes a wider issue for discussion. I think to try and frame people's remarks as 'changing the question' from the OP is a distorting maneuver as though in service of winning an argument and not too useful.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat May 31, 2014 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
 
4005 posts since 24 May, 2009, from A galaxy, far far away

Postby el-bo (formerly ebow); Sat May 31, 2014 8:04 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

Uncle E wrote:[it sure does make it easier and faster to get quality results when you've got one great EQ, one great compressor, and one great reverb.


your mission, should you choose to accept it :

name your "one great" for eq, comp and verb.....for 3 price brackets - cheap-seats, mid-priced, need-a-2nd-mortgage

thanks :D
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el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
 
4005 posts since 24 May, 2009, from A galaxy, far far away

Postby el-bo (formerly ebow); Sat May 31, 2014 8:07 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

maybe this needs a new thread
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9417 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sat May 31, 2014 8:15 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

ghettosynth wrote: I think that Diva is pretty much necessary for anyone who wants the best ITB analogue sound available today.
You're refuting your own argument 'I don't buy that everyone NEEDS...'. Your subjective 'best ITB analogue sound' requires this product? That's fine. Yet, I'm interested in 'analog sound' in some way and I think I don't need this one product to do it. I have totally got 'fat Moog bass' in Absynth.

This actually counters the argument 'you should be able to get all you need in the one host' and goes even further in support of buying things for a certain sound. Totally in agreement, I need things that aren't in Cubase 5 (and the first host was SX1 then SX2 and I found I should probably have better tools) for the best sound*. :shrug:
Yet, I think there is discipline to be found in trying to make do with what you have before buying. I'm not taking one side of the issue to prove it.

(*: which may not agree with the OP's 'pro sound', or your great EDM records, so this has to be a wider topic just out of the lack of definition as to things 'pro' and 'good'.)
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9417 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sat May 31, 2014 8:33 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

keyman_sam wrote: comes with excellent presets that are great to go off the bat.

I put IK Multimedia's VintComp 670 in any vocal and that vocal just springs to life (with the various presets in it). Then I can tweak the preset to my liking.

Once you have a few commercial plugins, you will no longer blame the plugins (as opposed to having freewares). "This sounds bad. It must be my doing or lack of." :D
Interesting points. I particularly recognize 'put VintComp 670 on there'!

I had a thing where I needed a really obvious fretless bass speaking the statement of the theme at a crux point in the composition. I needed a bit of it before and after, but this was clear-cut. I spent SO MUCH TIME trying to get it with a library that just wasn't giving it up and finally I went with the preset in Trilian and BOOM, there it is. Now, some of not being able to cut it with the other thing was me, but some of it wasn't, in particular the samples themselves!
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9417 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Sat May 31, 2014 8:40 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote:
Uncle E wrote:[it sure does make it easier and faster to get quality results when you've got one great EQ, one great compressor, and one great reverb.


your mission, should you choose to accept it :

name your "one great" for eq, comp and verb.....for 3 price brackets - cheap-seats, mid-priced, need-a-2nd-mortgage

thanks :D
I can give you mid-priced answer, Vienna Suite; also with a one great Multiband Comp (with a brickwall limiter toggle), Exciter, Limiter, and Mastering EQ. Actually I think for what it is, it's 'inexpensive'. Transparent compressor but with a 'Fat' button which gives you sort of tape compression effect.
fedexnman
KVRian
 
1306 posts since 3 Jan, 2005

Postby fedexnman; Sat May 31, 2014 8:56 am Re: Mixing with the DAW's plugins

StudioOne 2 and Live 9 , both have good enough EQs , Compressors/limiter , and Reverbs . If you can't get a descent mix in these 2 hosts using stock FX then its not the tools fault . 3rd party plugins are great if you use more than one host or need more options or colors to work with . I use Tracktion which totally lacks FX . So I use 3rd party stuff and use a less is more approach . So I reach for .. DDMF Eq , Valhalla reverbs or liquidsonics reverberate IR and Cytomic The Glue for Compression /limiting . So basically a handful of plugins . If I had and only used LiVe9 or StudioOne2 I'd be Happy with just the stock effects . We are really really lucky to have tools like these in the box / computer .
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