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Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

Anything about hardware musical instruments.

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AstralExistence
KVRAF
 
1940 posts since 19 Sep, 2011

Postby AstralExistence; Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:12 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

what kimd of music can you really hope to make with this anyway. ble bla bla bla ble bla bla bla BLOOOOOOOP
BleeeeeeeeeeeeOOOOOOOO! seriously.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4034 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:40 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

AstralExistence wrote:
idfpower wrote:You're missing the point: Moog decided to pay attention to the lower end of market and managed to come up with a really affordable synth, while ppl on a budget can finally own a Moog synth - limited as it is.



but its not a moog synth if i read correctly. that's the point. somebody stated that there's no original moog circuitry in this whatsoever. if that's really true, your paying for the name, yet your not getting moog quality. how much you want to bet that moog just took some cheap hardware manufacturers diy synth and put their name on it.


You're way off base. First, you shouldn't take what other people write on KVR about hardware too seriously. Second, this silly name worship is annoying from both sides of the coin. Moog makes synthesizers, so do other people, the patents for the Moog ladder filter have long run out and the phrase "moog quality" doesn't really mean very much with respect to synth components anymore. Moog makes some very well thought out products and they make some that are less interesting, this has always been true. The only thing that is almost universally consistent about Moog is the transistor ladder filter. Finally, what motivation would Moog have to use someone else's synth? Seriously, there's no reason to believe that at all, it's nothing but irresponsible speculation on your part.

Here's a picture.

Image

It should be very clear from this, well, very clear to anyone who knows what they're looking at, that this synth does, in fact, have a classic Moog transistor ladder filter. It should also be clear that there is an LM13700 based VCA, and an almost certainly sawtooth core based VCO with an expo converter. So, how is this NOT "classic moog" ? Be prepared to talk about why this circuit isn't classic Moog but other examples, say the MemoryMoog, are.

It's a very simple "Moog" synth that is no more, or no less "Moog" than any number of other simple synths that have a sawtooth core VCO followed by a ladder filter. What makes it underwhelming has nothing to do with the circuits, they are fine, it has everything to do with the fact that it is a simple, essentially unfinished and undeveloped, prototype product.

You should buy one if you are a collector, they will sell out fast and I doubt that there will be more.
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idfpower
KVRian
 
1061 posts since 13 Sep, 2012

Postby idfpower; Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:30 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

ghettosynth wrote:You should buy one if you are a collector, they will sell out fast and I doubt that there will be more.


You should have stopped right there instead of posting all that technical info :) You still don't get what I mean: ppl that will buy this are either trying their hand at getting their first "Moog" (thus paying just for the brand) or collectors. These don't cater to ppl in the know who want more than what this unit offers from a synth. Like it or not Moog is for the synth world what Fender is for guitars. I don't like any of these brands, but a lot of ppl do and would like to own one, even if for bragging rights. They may look and sound underwhelming and useless to some, but I bet pretty soon other folks will find start using for making music, not just killing time OTB.

For the record: I don't like Moog synths and don't plan on buying this unit. I still don't own any Volcas or Microbrute - for the same reasons: they don't fit my requirements. But they sure seem to work for other ppl, in spite of all the reported problems.
telurica.eu5.org
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4034 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:41 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

idfpower wrote:
ghettosynth wrote:You should buy one if you are a collector, they will sell out fast and I doubt that there will be more.


You should have stopped right there instead of posting all that technical info :) You still don't get what I mean:


Dude, I don't care what you mean, I'm talking about WHAT I THINK, is that alright with you?
samsam
KVRian
 
1354 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Postby samsam; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:00 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

Shy wrote:
there's really no "classic Moog circuitry" in there


ghettosynth wrote:

It should be very clear from this, well, very clear to anyone who knows what they're looking at, that this synth does, in fact, have a classic Moog transistor ladder filter. It should also be clear that there is an LM13700 based VCA, and an almost certainly sawtooth core based VCO with an expo converter. So, how is this NOT "classic moog" ? Be prepared to talk about why this circuit isn't classic Moog but other examples, say the MemoryMoog, are.

It's a very simple "Moog" synth that is no more, or no less "Moog" than any number of other simple synths that have a sawtooth core VCO followed by a ladder filter.


Who's right?
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:08 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

The synth is implemented very differently than any classic Moog synth, so sure, the general design may be similar, but for example it has a transistor ladder filter that's not based on any transistors similar to those in "classic Moog synths", modules, MiniMoog and MemoryMoog included, and its oscillator's frequency range is much smaller and it makes a real difference with modulation, so unsurprisingly the sound is more than a little different and the usability of things is different, like the filter without similar, characteristic "sweet spots". Why not be honest and just say it's "Moog" or "modern Moog"? I know why.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4034 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:22 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

samsam wrote:
Shy wrote:there's really no "classic Moog circuitry" in there


ghettosynth wrote:

It should be very clear from this, well, very clear to anyone who knows what they're looking at, that this synth does, in fact, have a classic Moog transistor ladder filter. It should also be clear that there is an LM13700 based VCA, and an almost certainly sawtooth core based VCO with an expo converter. So, how is this NOT "classic moog" ? Be prepared to talk about why this circuit isn't classic Moog but other examples, say the MemoryMoog, are.

It's a very simple "Moog" synth that is no more, or no less "Moog" than any number of other simple synths that have a sawtooth core VCO followed by a ladder filter.


Who's right?


I suspect that what Shy is saying is that the circuits aren't exact clones of any well known synths, they aren't. They are modernized variants of basic synthesizer designs that you can find in any number of synths, this is true. There isn't the mini VCA which ostensibly contributes a lot to the sound, or the mini eg that has the flat top which many believe contributes to the fatness.

But, there IS a ladder filter. You can almost draw the schematic of it from the picture of the circuit board, well, I can. There is an expo VCO in there, but there's an expo VCO in the overwhelming majority of analogue synths.

Now, consider the MemoryMoog, is that a real Moog? Almost every circuit in the MemoryMoog, save the filter, is a CEM chip. That's EVERY SINGLE CIRCUIT. The envelopes, the oscillators and the majority of, if not all,of the VCAs are CEM chips. These are the exact same CEM chips used in the Prophet 5 rev 3. The MemoryMoog does have ladder filters for all of its voices and this probably accounts for a lot of the fatness. So is the MemoryMoog "classic moog" ?

Now what about that AR envelope? It's a simple design based on an opamp. It's not "classic moog", but there's nothing special about the AR envelop in the Moog Rogue either, so who cares?

Now, consider the oscillators over the years from the original modular to the various monos and polys. Are they all the same, absolutely not, I've already told you that the MemoryMoog contains CEMs. The Rogue is a heater based 3386 transistor array core, the mini is based on the UA726, the original modular is a lot of support circuitry wrapped around a unijunction transistor based relaxation oscillator. What's the "classic moog" part of those circuits? Which part of the circuit is important to the sound? Does a Roland System 100 sound just like a minimoog? The oscillators are both based on the UA726.

So, to say that it's not a moog is incorrect, but so what? It's a moog design, yes, it's not particularly special, it does have a transistor ladder filter, however, as does almost every Moog design.

Really, with a few notable exceptions, e.g. the original modular oscillators, the mini VCA/EG, the polymoog resonator, the essence of "classic moog" is an exponential sawtooth core oscillator followed by a ladder filter, and this synth has that. Moog has always adapted their designs for the available components of the times. This is just a modern, simple variant. Even the transistors for the ladder filters change with what's available.

It's still not very interesting.
lectrixboogaloo
KVRist
 
104 posts since 11 Mar, 2014

Postby lectrixboogaloo; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:40 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

Was this designed as a real product or more or less as plum convention swag? Seems to be nice enough swag. Probably had enough people plead 'me too!' that they threw a few out to give them a chance to get a hold of one if they really want it. I doubt the story is much more complicated.

Maybe demand will drive it into an accidental place in the Moog product line, but seriously doubt the company is banking on that in any way. This thing is out there just for fun. One would imagine they would be just as pleased to sell you a ladder filter in a 'boutique' stomp box for $289 as they would in a potential support headache kit synth for only a few bucks more.
ghettosynth
KVRAF
 
4034 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Postby ghettosynth; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:45 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

lectrixboogaloo wrote:Was this designed as a real product or more or less as plum convention swag? Seems to be nice enough swag. Probably had enough people plead 'me too!' that they threw a few out to give them a chance to get a hold of one if they really want it. I doubt the story is much more complicated.


I think so.

Maybe demand will drive it into an accidental place in the Moog product line, but seriously doubt the company is banking on that in any way. This thing is out there just for fun. One would imagine they would be just as pleased to sell you a ladder filter in a 'boutique' stomp box for $289 as they would in a potential support headache kit synth for only a few bucks more.


I doubt that "this" will be a part of the Moog product line, long term. As I say, you'd probably better get one now if you can't imagine the thought of not having one.
Shy
KVRAF
 
4968 posts since 26 Jun, 2004

Postby Shy; Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:46 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

Nowadays I don't know if a company really means it when they say something is a "limited edition", "limited production run" etc. This may just serve as a test which, if successful, will mean they'll release something very similar later, with some improved features. It seems like a popular trick.
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Claudio Monteverdi
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6468 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:47 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

V0RT3X wrote:$330.00 and limited amounts available! get em while you can!


They're just talking about for the first month. It's going into regular production by August.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6468 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:48 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

thecontrolcentre wrote:Looks and sounds nice ... if a bit limited. I wonder what the UK price will be (if any get here).


It should get to the UK by end of summer.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6468 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:54 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

AstralExistence wrote:but its not a moog synth if i read correctly. that's the point. somebody stated that there's no original moog circuitry in this whatsoever. if that's really true, your paying for the name, yet your not getting moog quality.


It wouldn't be the first time. Moog has only ever made a few synths that were up to the level of the Minimoog. The Minitaur and Sub Phatty are my favorite Moog's since the Micromoog, everything in between was sort of lackluster. This is all IMO, of course.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6468 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:57 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

ghettosynth wrote:So, how is this NOT "classic moog" ?


Discrete electronics.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6468 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:58 pm Re: Moog WERKSTATT-Ø1 ANALOG SYNTHESIZER

ghettosynth wrote:You should buy one if you are a collector, they will sell out fast and I doubt that there will be more.


They'll be making loads.
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