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Multiple barsignatures?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.

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mattie
KVRer
 
21 posts since 1 Dec, 2008

Postby mattie; Wed May 28, 2014 8:51 am Multiple barsignatures?

Does anybody know if it is possible to have multiple barsignatures at the same time in the score edit of cubase? (Or in any other DAW?).
Thanks in advance
mattie
KVRer
 
21 posts since 1 Dec, 2008

Postby mattie; Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:20 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

Nobody?!
JumpingJackFlash
KVRian
 
1146 posts since 10 Oct, 2004

Postby JumpingJackFlash; Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:47 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

Do you mean time signatures, key signatures, both, or something else?
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
KoolFartWind
KVRist
 
63 posts since 17 Jul, 2010, from Beerlin

Postby KoolFartWind; Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:31 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

You could adjust the time signature manually in any DAW by adjusting the velocities accordingly. Gets messy (like PSG soon), though :hihi:
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:46 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

No, time signature is_not a property of MIDI velocity.

And if you mean can you have two time signatures at the same time in Cubase, that's a no. You can take a larger nominator in a bar and set subdivisions in the score editor that isn't shown in the tempo track or key editor. But all of the parts are going to have to use the same barline and the same time sig.
KoolFartWind
KVRist
 
63 posts since 17 Jul, 2010, from Beerlin

Postby KoolFartWind; Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:48 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

meter = periodic accentuation pattern, time signature = meter + division into pulses. YMMV. Now please provide a few paragraphs of theory. :hihi:
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warp x
KVRian
 
659 posts since 28 Feb, 2003, from out

Postby warp x; Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:38 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

mattie wrote:Does anybody know if it is possible to have multiple barsignatures at the same time in the score edit of cubase? (Or in any other DAW?).
Thanks in advance


No. I'll be the first to buy the DAW that sports this feature.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:39 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

KoolFartWind wrote:meter = periodic accentuation pattern, time signature = meter + division into pulses. YMMV. Now please provide a few paragraphs of theory. :hihi:
You said "You could adjust the time signature manually in any DAW by adjusting the velocities accordingly" - accordingly? According to what? It's a nonsensical sentence.

You can have various accentuation patterns of a given meter. The question however is about setting time signatures, the question is specifically about the convention, in a DAW. It's not asking about accents. I guess I have to explain this?? The tempo track in Cubase for instance says 4/4. Sure you could accent it to feel like 3/4 and after four iterations of that its ONE agrees with the ONE after three bars of the tempo track's 4/4, but that doesn't make 'the time signature' into 3/4 {until you redefine it 'manually'}!

Time signature and accentuation are not synonymous.
Let me demonstrate: 6/8, or any compound meter can be accentuated every two or every three. It could feel like 3/4 or it's two dotted quarters. Hemiola: 1 2 3 4 5 6; 1 2 3 4 5 6 (Bernstein/Sondheim America, I want to be in A mer_i_ca_).
OR it could be accentuated on ONE and FIVE, as though it amounts to 4+2/8.

12/8 could be two of either one of the first two 6/8s, or it could be accentuated {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12} as 5 + 7.
Or as 7 + 5. Or every other beat as though 6/4 is just a finer grid x 2. But we can totally name it 12/8 as long as there are 12 8th notes or 6/8 as long as there are 6 8ths. That's all a time signature is.

So yeah, I could take up some real space showing you what time it is. "YMMV"? It's not an opinion.

So great display of not knowing what you're talking about.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
LGK_Dude
KVRian
 
590 posts since 30 Dec, 2005

Postby LGK_Dude; Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:53 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

jancivil wrote:
KoolFartWind wrote:Time signature is meter, it is not an accentuation pattern! You can have various accentuation patterns of a given meter.


This is true, but its the music that determines the accentuation of the pattern. The only daw that lets you change the click track into pattern based is Digital Performer (I believe they even call it pattern clicks) but DP for sure allow you to make a dotted quarter click for example, so you can make a 6/8 bar feel like 1 2 3 4 5 6, etc. DP lets you change these every bar, so to use your example, you can have one bar that feels like 3+3/8 followed by 4+2/8, etc. You can also do complex time signatures just like your "America" example.

All other DAW's (that I know of) you will need to do this yourself by recording the click as an audio file and chop it up so the accents are when you want them or use a midi drum track and program the click yourself. Its not too hard to do manually (I personally use a clave midi instrument and just program it real quick) so I would in no way switch from Cubase to DP for this feature personally, but DP does have a 30 day demo you can try and see if its worth it for you.

Hopefully I answered the OP's question?
Last edited by LGK_Dude on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
My progressive rock band - free demos here!! (and if you do listen please let me know what you think!) http://www.facebook.com/AeonSatori
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:57 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

LGK_Dude wrote:
jancivil wrote:Time signature is meter, it is not an accentuation pattern! You can have various accentuation patterns of a given meter.

This is true, but its the music that determines the accentuation of the pattern. The only daw that lets you change the click track into pattern based is Digital Performer

Does this address the OP? I feel fairly sure that the question is about barlines where individual parts are to be in different meters. I could be wrong, it's not perfectly clear to me.

I think Cubase click track can be accented variously. I used to read about how years ago. Not sure how flexible, like are you stuck with just one way, I never use a click.
And as I said above, in the score editor you can set I think up to four smaller subdivisions of the meter. I didn't find a way to exceed four.
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:39 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

warp x wrote:
mattie wrote:Does anybody know if it is possible to have multiple barsignatures at the same time in the score edit of cubase? (Or in any other DAW?).
Thanks in advance


No. I'll be the first to buy the DAW that sports this feature.
I think I have seen something mentioned in "Hosts" that does, tho not 100% on that.
KoolFartWind
KVRist
 
63 posts since 17 Jul, 2010, from Beerlin

Postby KoolFartWind; Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:18 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

jancivil wrote:
KoolFartWind wrote:meter = periodic accentuation pattern, time signature = meter + division into pulses. YMMV. Now please provide a few paragraphs of theory. :hihi:
You said "You could adjust the time signature manually in any DAW by adjusting the velocities accordingly" - accordingly? According to what? It's a nonsensical sentence.

You can have various accentuation patterns of a given meter. The question however is about setting time signatures, the question is specifically about the convention, in a DAW. It's not asking about accents. I guess I have to explain this?? The tempo track in Cubase for instance says 4/4. Sure you could accent it to feel like 3/4 and after four iterations of that its ONE agrees with the ONE after three bars of the tempo track's 4/4, but that doesn't make 'the time signature' into 3/4 {until you redefine it 'manually'}!

Time signature and accentuation are not synonymous.
Let me demonstrate: 6/8, or any compound meter can be accentuated every two or every three. It could feel like 3/4 or it's two dotted quarters. Hemiola: 1 2 3 4 5 6; 1 2 3 4 5 6 (Bernstein/Sondheim America, I want to be in A mer_i_ca_).
OR it could be accentuated on ONE and FIVE, as though it amounts to 4+2/8.

12/8 could be two of either one of the first two 6/8s, or it could be accentuated {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12} as 5 + 7.
Or as 7 + 5. Or every other beat as though 6/4 is just a finer grid x 2. But we can totally name it 12/8 as long as there are 12 8th notes or 6/8 as long as there are 6 8ths. That's all a time signature is.
.


You're right. But to me it was obvious, that the OP prefers, not to be slayed with a few pages with possible accentuation divisions of compounded time sigs. Of course again, YMMV.
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2826 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:49 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

Notation is a (not very precise, and therefore, subject to interpretation) translation of music into written symbols, to preserve it in a time where there was no other means to do it (no recordings).

Bar divisions and time signatures were added at one time, to mark the rhythm, and its subdivisions. With the increased complexity music assumed, many times these were no longer suitable to accurately translate the increasing rhythm complexities, and several compromises were take (tuplets, tuplets inside tuplets. accents, bars without time signature, etc).

Notation is still the best/fast way for many to learn a tune, although others do it by ear. This given, I think that the OP is talking about NOTATION, therefore, any other suggestion like using any other tool the sequencer may have is clueless. However, depending on what he is thinking when he says DAW, the best notation programs, like Finale and Sibelius, all allow what he wants - and they allow very sophisticated playback tempi too, including real time control of playback.

They also allow MIDI manipulation to an extent. And since notation can only be applied tio MIDI tracks, not audio tracks, maybe these qualify as "DAW" for the purpose he wants.
Fernando (FMR)
jancivil
KVRAF
 
9503 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:30 am Re: Multiple barsignatures?

KoolFartWind wrote:You're right. But to me it was obvious, that the OP prefers, not to be slayed with a few pages with possible accentuation divisions of compounded time sigs. Of course again, YMMV.
At the time you made the remark you're doubling down on, all I had done was three succinct sentences, which I believe apply directly to the actual question. So not only do you have trouble reading the OP, you now have it all out of sequence.

I found the 'hihi' a bit much in terms of snark. "Of course again, YMMV."? There was no mileage to vary in the first place. You have confounded meter with accent more than once in these pages. Here you presented an unambiguous statement of something that doesn't work. I felt like being thorough and then I wanted to be perfectly clear by a concrete example. Are there "a few pages", really?
KoolFartWind
KVRist
 
63 posts since 17 Jul, 2010, from Beerlin

Postby KoolFartWind; Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:07 pm Re: Multiple barsignatures?

jancivil wrote: You have confounded meter with accent more than once in these pages. Here you presented an unambiguous statement of something that doesn't work. I felt like being thorough and then I wanted to be perfectly clear by a concrete example. Are there "a few pages", really?


But meter to me is still the periodic accentuation function. You are right, you cannot map injectively from a time signature to a meter, but the other way round it works : for every given meter (a periodic "wave" of accentuations (you can use velocities)) you have only one possible time signature. So the term "meter" describes the phenomenon more specifically.

jancivil wrote:You said "You could adjust the time signature manually in any DAW by adjusting the velocities accordingly" - accordingly? According to what? It's a nonsensical sentence.


According to the desired meter of course.
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