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The world cup thread!

If it's not about music it belongs here! Please keep it civil and decent.... except - see below->

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fmr
KVRAF
 
2685 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:00 am Re: The world cup thread!

Zombie Queen wrote:
fmr wrote:
keyman_sam wrote:Also, am I crazy/alone in thinking that Neymar Jr. is intentionally out of the team (i.e. faking his injury)? Maybe the kid cracked under pressure and came up with the most graceful way to exit? Now if Brazil loses they can pin their loss on bad luck (missing Neymar and T.Silva). Neymar maintains his hero status. Brazil loses due to bad luck. Ze Germans lift the cup. Everyone is happy.

Eh? Anyone?

You are seeing too much X Files, aren't you?

Maybe I watch too much X stuff, but I reckon I didn't write this... :scared:

Sorry, my mistake :oops: It was keyman_sam who wrote that :dog:
Fernando (FMR)
KVRAF
 
1885 posts since 24 Mar, 2006, from The city by the bay

Postby rp314; Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:06 pm Re: The world cup thread!

fmr wrote:
IMO, the thing that hurts more this sport is bad decisions from the referees.

But a bigger problem remains, and that is the violent anti-game from certain players, and the faking of fouls by others. These could also be prevented by allowing afterwards visioning of the game, and punishment of the players (either the violent tackles or the foul faking) by a second team of referees, with the help of recorded playback. After a few severe punishments, things would improve in this field, IMO.


You and I are of one mind here. When my grandfather religiously attended football matches, (and it is important that we understand this fact) the overwhelming majority of the time the referee had the best "objective" view of what was going on in the game. Fans literally got into fights over what they "saw", or heard one of their fellow fanatics say they saw, from the stands.

And, to be clear, this is an on-going issue in all professional team sports. The NFL, for example, too often seems to involve the absurdity of 'dirty' players being fined for actions for which they were not flagged during the game??

That all said, just like our friend from the Netherlands on the previous page, some of us might just be needing something to bitch about before the next round finally gets here... :hihi:
I really am looking for absolution for all the things I had to do for money's sake.- Edgar G. Ulmer
KVRAF
 
5178 posts since 23 May, 2002, from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Postby kritikon; Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:38 pm Re: The world cup thread!

fmr wrote:
cytospur wrote:
keyman_sam wrote:CRC's strategy seemed to be to just break the rhythm of NED with whatever they could get away with physically.


Like Brazil's strategy against James Rodriguez of Colombia?

You bet. Now are we still defending that the game should be allowed to be more physical? I hope people understand by now why this kind of behaviour cannot be allowed.


We're not defending that the game should more physical. We're defending that players should be allowed a sporting chance to get the ball. Football is not and never has been a "non contact" sport. I don't where anyone gets that strange idea. Personally I don't like sliding tackles...the difference with them is that the intention is to foul. Whether you get the ball or not, the player is taken out. That is the intent. So identify bad fouls, not try and penalise any contact, which onlyl serves to deliver the game to divers and cheats such as Robben and Ronaldo (there are many many more...they are simply the most obvious culprits). I'm a little undecided, as I do genuinely think it's FIFA's fiddling with the rules and enforcing that referees bend the rules in a certain direction that has probably made for such entertaining and attacking football, and it being relatively successful. But for me not at the cost of making it that the cheats always win. They wouldn't be diving if diving wasn't rewarded. Which it mkst obviously is.
KVRAF
 
5178 posts since 23 May, 2002, from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Postby kritikon; Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:47 pm Re: The world cup thread!

I do agree with you on using either more referees, or preferably video refereeing in some, but not all instances. The argument against is that it slows the game. Well more often than not, after an incident the game has been stopped either by the ref or by the players writhing around in dramatis personae anyway. It works to the benefit of both forms of rugby here, and as well as identifying real fouls, it would also identify cheats. I have no problem with video decisions bringing cards to foulers as long as divers also get booked. Every goal should be checked by video ref. Every free kick where the game is stopped should be video reffed. That would achieve both our aims. It would also have put Robben out of the cup, and good riddance. Personally I think it would also show that many of these so-called violent anti game tactics you talk of aren't anywhere near as bad as you think. Many of them involve almost no physical contact. Video reffing would show that.
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fmr
KVRAF
 
2685 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:07 pm Re: The world cup thread!

kritikon wrote:I do agree with you on using either more referees, or preferably video refereeing in some, but not all instances. The argument against is that it slows the game. Well more often than not, after an incident the game has been stopped either by the ref or by the players writhing around in dramatis personae anyway. It works to the benefit of both forms of rugby here, and as well as identifying real fouls, it would also identify cheats. I have no problem with video decisions bringing cards to foulers as long as divers also get booked. Every goal should be checked by video ref. Every free kick where the game is stopped should be video reffed. That would achieve both our aims. It would also have put Robben out of the cup, and good riddance. Personally I think it would also show that many of these so-called violent anti game tactics you talk of aren't anywhere near as bad as you think. Many of them involve almost no physical contact. Video reffing would show that.

I like to see you are with me on this. Beware that I don't defend a "no contact" game. I played football, at center back position, and because I was tall and strong, I was used to use my physic power to win the strugle for the ball. And I am aware there is a lot of acting in the game nowadays (but there is a lot of violent tackles too).

That said, there has to be a clear frontier between force and violence, between tackles that are to win the ball and tackles which only aim is to take down the other player, and sometimes with severe injuries. Brazil used that tactics with James Rodriguez (Fernandinho should have been booked at least twice before mid-time and he ended the game without even one). Colombia started to payback.

End result: The best brazilian player, the only one that do through the defenses dribling with the ball, was taken down, and can no longer play in this cup. THIS cannot be allowed. James has to be able to play, as well as Neymar, without having to fear for their physical integrity. Of course accidents happen, but the possibility of a real and severe harm by a well intentioned tackle is not that great.
Fernando (FMR)
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KVRAF
 
4569 posts since 28 May, 2005, from Netherlands

Postby Nielzie; Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:18 pm Re: The world cup thread!

kritikon wrote:It would also have put Robben out of the cup, and good riddance.

I'm not saying that Robben never dives unnecessary, he even admitted and felt sorry for that he dived unnecessary during the first half of the match against Mexico because he jumped and let himself fall because he expected to be hit on his legs by a Mexican player (NOT as the international media took over, that it was for the penalty they got in second half), but considering Netherlands got 2 VERY questionable penalties against them in 2 previous matches might also be a reason he did that. Not right, but also could perhaps be a somewhat understandable in this regard..

I've seen this diving in a lot of games actually, by a lot of players from a lot of teams, but somehow Robben and maybe the whole dutch soccer team is now the caricature of such unsportive behaviour. Probably because he admitted and excused for doing it that one time. If I see what physical offences Robben actually DID receive on his legs and feet during those matches I even feel a bit sorry for him now.. Also because he has suffered from a long history of long severe injuries during his carreer.
Last edited by Nielzie on Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KVRAF
 
1885 posts since 24 Mar, 2006, from The city by the bay

Postby rp314; Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:30 pm Re: The world cup thread!

Nielzie wrote:I've seen this diving in a lot of games actually, by a lot of players from a lot of teams, but somehow Robben and maybe the whole dutch soccer team is now the caricature of such unsportive behaviour. Probably because he admitted and excused for doing it one time. If I see what physical offences Robben actually DID receive on his legs and feet during those matches I even feel a bit sorry for him now..


Well, I've seen that happen before with regards to other nations. IMO that shouldn't be so, but...

However, it's important to remember that folks like yourself should be concentrating on celebrating the fact that you are one of four nations on this planet playing in the next few days. :party:

And if it were up to me, seeing the Cup go to a nation that does not already have one is the only form of 'real justice'... :pray:
I really am looking for absolution for all the things I had to do for money's sake.- Edgar G. Ulmer
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fmr
KVRAF
 
2685 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:50 pm Re: The world cup thread!

rp314 wrote:And if it were up to me, seeing the Cup go to a nation that does not already have one is the only form of 'real justice'... :pray:

:lol: You are dutch, aren't you?
Fernando (FMR)
KVRAF
 
5178 posts since 23 May, 2002, from Tutukaka, New Zealand

Postby kritikon; Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:22 pm Re: The world cup thread!

Nielzie wrote:
kritikon wrote:It would also have put Robben out of the cup, and good riddance.

I'm not saying that Robben never dives unnecessary, he even admitted and felt sorry for that he dived unnecessary during the first half of the match against Mexico because he jumped and let himself fall because he expected to be hit on his legs by a Mexican player (NOT as the international media took over, that it was for the penalty they got in second half), but considering Netherlands got 2 VERY questionable penalties against them in 2 previous matches might also be a reason he did that. Not right, but also could perhaps be a somewhat understandable in this regard..

I've seen this diving in a lot of games actually, by a lot of players from a lot of teams, but somehow Robben and maybe the whole dutch soccer team is now the caricature of such unsportive behaviour. Probably because he admitted and excused for doing it that one time. If I see what physical offences Robben actually DID receive on his legs and feet during those matches I even feel a bit sorry for him now.. Also because he has suffered from a long history of long severe injuries during his carreer.


That's not the case at all. Everyone knows Robben is a diver; he does it at least 2 or 3 times every match always trying for either a penalty or a free kick within scoring range. But I haven't read any press-wide condemnation of the whole Dutch team. In fact you have some players who refrain from it quite well. Van Persie used to play for my team (Arsenal) and he used to dive more than I liked. Now you'd think I'd hate him for going to Man U, but the opposite - he's become a better all round player, and I see him trying to stay on his feet more. And guess what? The more he stays up, the more he scores. That's what so rips my knickers about the divers...you see so many of them that could have actually scored if they made any effort to stay upright. But they go the easy route and dive, and sometimes miss out on goals because of it...THAT's anti-football. The Dutch certainly aren't the worst at it by a long way, they just have one particular player that specialises in cheating. And referees everytime reward him for cheating. The only bruises he has are up his elbows from throwing them forward on the ground.
sjm
KVRian
 
632 posts since 17 Apr, 2004

Postby sjm; Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:53 am Re: The world cup thread!

Yeah, Robben diving has nothing to do with the Dutch. He does if for Bayern too given half a chance. That's just the type of person he is.
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KVRAF
 
20153 posts since 26 Jul, 2005, from Inside Schroedinger's Cat...or am I...

Postby robojam; Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:47 am Re: The world cup thread!

The game has definitely changed for the worse because of the diving. I played a lot when I was a kid, either at left or right back for the most part. Defending was all about stopping someone getting past you, and it could be physical - and that goes both ways, as big forwards would generally try to run through you.

A couple of years ago I decided to play again, and kept getting fouls called against me at first for physical challenges. To me I didn't do anything that was a foul - I placed my body in front of anyone trying to get past me, I leaned in to anyone spending too much time on the ball, I flicked my foot at the ball to get it away from the attacker's feet - whistles that I didn't expect immediately following. It's a hard habit to break, but defenders just don't take chances like they used to, or there are fouls and penalties called that would have been waved away in the past.
sjm
KVRian
 
632 posts since 17 Apr, 2004

Postby sjm; Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:55 am Re: The world cup thread!

What I really disliked the last time I played footy was that the odd player spent the entire time pulling my shirt. This during a friendly 7-a-side game for purely recreational purposes. I don't like it on the telly, but I really can't understand where someone gets the idea that constantly pulling someone's shirt during a friendly kickabout is the norm.

I've got nothing against a physical game as long as it's fair. A certain amount of jostling ought to be all right, but no hands-a-flailing, no elbows, no kicking. I have always been pretty underweight and have absolutely nothing against a defender using his body strength to challenge me - in fact it makes things easy when I suddenly pull by body away, removing the support he was leaning on, meaning the heavier defender's momentum leaves him off balance while I whizz off down the field.

Unfortunately I suspect that to a certain extent, the tendency to clamp down on what I consider part of the game has left players resorting to other (far more unsavoury) methods to try and gain an advantage over the opponents. And I really don't like it.
KVRAF
 
1885 posts since 24 Mar, 2006, from The city by the bay

Postby rp314; Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:36 am Re: The world cup thread!

fmr wrote:
rp314 wrote:And if it were up to me, seeing the Cup go to a nation that does not already have one is the only form of 'real justice'... :pray:

:lol: You are dutch, aren't you?


Half Italian (both my grandmothers), a quarter Portuguese (maternal Grandfather sailed from Lisbon as a teen), one eighth Scottish, and then there's that other eighth Dutch. The only one in it right now... :P

Seriously, you really wanna see Brazil having a third of all the Cups? :x

:hihi:
I really am looking for absolution for all the things I had to do for money's sake.- Edgar G. Ulmer
User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
 
2685 posts since 16 Mar, 2003, from Porto - Portugal

Postby fmr; Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:47 am Re: The world cup thread!

rp314 wrote:
fmr wrote:
rp314 wrote:And if it were up to me, seeing the Cup go to a nation that does not already have one is the only form of 'real justice'... :pray:

:lol: You are dutch, aren't you?


Half Italian (both my grandmothers), a quarter Portuguese (maternal Grandfather sailed from Lisbon as a teen), one eighth Scottish, and then there's that other eighth Dutch. The only one in it right now... :P

Seriously, you really wanna see Brazil having a third of all the Cups? :x

:hihi:

Actually, I really don't care. I think Holland deserves a cup by now (they already lost too many finals), but I hope that the winner is the best team (which is hard to tell, since all four runner-ups played so poorly in the quarter-finals)
Fernando (FMR)
KVRAF
 
1885 posts since 24 Mar, 2006, from The city by the bay

Postby rp314; Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:39 am Re: The world cup thread!

fmr wrote:Actually, I really don't care. I think Holland deserves a cup by now (they already lost too many finals), but I hope that the winner is the best team (which is hard to tell, since all four runner-ups played so poorly in the quarter-finals)


Ah, there's the rub!

It's a sports competition. It's fun to watch and certain nations seem to have the found the right formula, but going so far as to say that the winner is always the most deserving, well, you know... :hihi:

Still, I want to hear from those who are so disgusted by whatever has happened so far that they will NOT watch from here on out. :lol:
I really am looking for absolution for all the things I had to do for money's sake.- Edgar G. Ulmer
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