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vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:35 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

Numanoid wrote:An accurate VSTi emualtion also need to incorporate these flaws right?:

"the Fizmo was much criticized because of its unfinished operating system, editing peculiarities, unreliability (concerning problems with the external power supply adapter and/or the Fizmo's internal power supply DC regulator)"


Well, there's the "law" and the "letter of the law" as they say. I've not really heard many complaints about the Fizmo OS, but the power regulator issues are legendary. I have this weird memory of someone telling me there were problems because they had moved away from lead based solder, but there was a lot of bad mouthing of Ensoniq back in the day.

I've never been a stickler for accurate emulations, especially when we're talking about design flaws or things that couldn't be done due to the tech of the time and/or cost concerns. Imagine if Monark didn't have presets. What if the KLC Wavestation used 33kHz dacs? I'm even critical of hardware reissues like the MS20 Mini that add things like USB connectivity, but leave out velocity sensitivity.

What I'm more interested in is gleaning what the kernel of "essence" was about the Fizmo. I'm still learning. If it's a matter of using the same wavetables and high quality effects, it seems like we'd have it easy but I suspect it's more than that or we'd already have various Reaktor and Synthedit versions.

Frankly, I'd love a Fizmo rack and if I could find one with the voltage regulator mod for $700, I'd be tempted but as we all know they're rare birds. Also, I can't help but think that in 2014 where we're nipping at the heels of a perfect analog monosynth emulation, we surely can model the Fizmo, no? Is the main issue copyright issues with the ROM memory?
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
robotmonkey
KVRian
 
521 posts since 20 Jun, 2012

Postby robotmonkey; Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:06 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

What made Fizmo so different was the transwaves obviously and the various real-time modulations that you could use to shape sound. And by the way Ensoniq had 128 step wavetables (unlike the Waldorf's 64 step). They could sound really smooth. Another thing was the real-time controls so you would need a good midi controller with a lots of knobs to take advantage of any emulation.

The manufacturing problems were all Creative's fault because they wanted to make everything cheaply as they were not that much interested in continuing making musical instruments. All the previous Ensoniq stuff was of the highest quality you could get. It was always very solid and well manufactured.

I guess all the Ensoniq stuff belongs to Creative so I doubt we'll see anything done on that front. Creative has killed off both Ensoniq and EMU long time ago and exited form the musical instrument/pro audio market completely. They have also gone seriously downhill on recent years, heavily loosing sales and market share (no surprise there) on every front. And I think they can not sell any of the Ensoniq tech either because this is tied to their sound chip products.

But I would say an VSTi Fizmo/TS-10 hybrid would be sweet.
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Echoes in the Attic
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3862 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:31 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

zerocrossing wrote:I've never been a stickler for accurate emulations, especially when we're talking about design flaws or things that couldn't be done due to the tech of the time and/or cost concerns. Imagine if Monark didn't have presets. What if the KLC Wavestation used 33kHz dacs? I'm even critical of hardware reissues like the MS20 Mini that add things like USB connectivity, but leave out velocity sensitivity.


I agree totally. I bothers me so much that Monark has no velocity sensitivity. And it really annoys me when people actually defend that decision, saying it's more "authentic". No, it is not more authentic. Both the sound character and the user experience working with the synth is the same if you have velocity sensitivity. A switch on the B panel is all that would be needed (or maybe a couple for filter/amp response to velocity). It's one of those things, like presets that is just silly to leave out.

Back on topic - I thought Gladiator had been compared to the Fizmo. I'm unfamiliar with the fizmo but thought I'd mention it.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.
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Turello
KVRAF
 
2343 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:53 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

Why steam don't sounds on my DAWs..? Nuendo 5, FL Studio 9, Studio One 2...

@zerocrossing: say hello to the bay area thrash metal scene on my part! ;-)
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:17 pm Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:I've never been a stickler for accurate emulations, especially when we're talking about design flaws or things that couldn't be done due to the tech of the time and/or cost concerns. Imagine if Monark didn't have presets. What if the KLC Wavestation used 33kHz dacs? I'm even critical of hardware reissues like the MS20 Mini that add things like USB connectivity, but leave out velocity sensitivity.


I agree totally. I bothers me so much that Monark has no velocity sensitivity. And it really annoys me when people actually defend that decision, saying it's more "authentic". No, it is not more authentic. Both the sound character and the user experience working with the synth is the same if you have velocity sensitivity. A switch on the B panel is all that would be needed (or maybe a couple for filter/amp response to velocity). It's one of those things, like presets that is just silly to leave out.

Back on topic - I thought Gladiator had been compared to the Fizmo. I'm unfamiliar with the fizmo but thought I'd mention it.


Hm, Gladiator? Maybe... you can scan though waveforms in interesting ways but can't import your own... I think you can with ElectraX (soon to be Electra 2) Maybe if you were to import a full transwave into it you'd get close?

I'm pissed that Puremagnetik seems to have taken my money and sent me nothing in return. WTF? I was interested in playing around with their software.
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:00 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

Turello wrote:Why steam don't sounds on my DAWs..? Nuendo 5, FL Studio 9, Studio One 2...

@zerocrossing: say hello to the bay area thrash metal scene on my part! ;-)


Yeah, a long time ago I tried Steam as well and couldn't get it to work at all. Not sure why. xoxos would rather let that one die as there's something on the site about improperly created wave files...

I will say "hello" if I encounter the metal scene... though with a 1 year old running around, my music encounters are more or less me stealing a few moments in my studio, or making up songs on a lavender ukulele to keep my daughter entertained. :band:

:lol:
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
andrelafosse
KVRist
 
150 posts since 18 Jun, 2010

Postby andrelafosse; Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:22 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

zerocrossing wrote:I'm pissed that Puremagnetik seems to have taken my money and sent me nothing in return. WTF? I was interested in playing around with their software.


Follow up with them - I've done lots of transaction with Puremagnetik, and have found them to be very reliable and trustworthy.

I'm also curious to hear your take on their Fizmo emulation set - I have it, and like it, but have no firsthand experience with a Fizmo to compare it with.
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:59 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

andrelafosse wrote:
zerocrossing wrote:I'm pissed that Puremagnetik seems to have taken my money and sent me nothing in return. WTF? I was interested in playing around with their software.


Follow up with them - I've done lots of transaction with Puremagnetik, and have found them to be very reliable and trustworthy.

I'm also curious to hear your take on their Fizmo emulation set - I have it, and like it, but have no firsthand experience with a Fizmo to compare it with.


Hi Andre!

I like it... but I only have very old first hand experience with the Fizmo when demoed in a music store so I'd pretty much say I have no experience with it either. Most of my idea of what a Fizmo is comes from Youtube demos, reading the manual and a feeling of nostalgia. :clown:

I had to email Puremagnetik to get a download link, but I did get it working. My initial take is there are cool sounds here... but I need to figure out out to edit them. I'm not an expert on editing Live devices and I'm a bit lost. I'll have to see if there are tutorials up somewhere. I think with the Fizmo there were a lot of scanning modes for the transwaves, but I think they're absent here. The transwaves to sound good though in that 90s digital way.

I did bring in some of the wave files into Poseidon, which was fun, but they're broken up. 1 file per "frame." I guess I could stitch them all together in a wave editor and have transwave files... a big PITA. Also, Poseidon lacks the number of oscs and parts to emulate the Fizmo. Maybe Cube is the answer? I have requested a demo download.
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:28 pm Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Back on topic - I thought Gladiator had been compared to the Fizmo. I'm unfamiliar with the fizmo but thought I'd mention it.


Yeah, I've got Gladiator open and I can see what people are saying. You can do super cool stuff with Gladiator's wavefiles... but you can't import your own. I can see how people would compare it functionally though. I'm still a bit pissed off that Tone2 sold Gladiator 2 with a "resynthesis" button and suggesting you could bring in your own samples for resynthesis in later versions... only to unceremoniously remove the button and cease any further development on Gladiator 2 except for 64 bit compatibility and extra sound banks. Still, Gladiator is a monster I'm glad I have in my arsenal.

So... I'm not "done" but here's my take so far. As I suspected, if you want that a Fizmo, get a Fizmo. There's no building it in Zebra, that's for sure. The Puremagnetik Waveframe is very cool though and for $15 every Live owner should have it. From what I can tell it's a nice "taste" of Fizmosity.

But do not despair! It's pretty clear that the Fizmo's charm, as many have suggested, is in those pesky transwaves and how you can modulate and scan though them. I think I could get as close as I need to if I stitched the Waveframe wav files together to recreate the Fizmo's transwaves (if they are indeed that) and then bring those files into Poseidon or Cube 2 and use their resynthesis engines to "get me in the ballpark." I think that'll be enough for me as I have no money and space to put a Fizmo keyboard in my studio. Well I should say that's not really true, but I'd have to get rid of other gear that I'm sure I would use a hell of a lot more than a Fizmo. It's like having to dedicate a whole shelf in your kitchen to cardamom. Cardamom is a nice spice to have, but you're going to use salt, pepper, rosemary, thyme and garlic a lot more in day to day cooking, unless you're Indian and yes, then it's worth it. So I think I have as much of a taste as I need and if I come across anything else I'll report back. :phones:
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:46 pm Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

zerocrossing wrote:
Turello wrote:Why steam don't sounds on my DAWs..? Nuendo 5, FL Studio 9, Studio One 2...

@zerocrossing: say hello to the bay area thrash metal scene on my part! ;-)


Yeah, a long time ago I tried Steam as well and couldn't get it to work at all. Not sure why. xoxos would rather let that one die as there's something on the site about improperly created wave files...

I will say "hello" if I encounter the metal scene... though with a 1 year old running around, my music encounters are more or less me stealing a few moments in my studio, or making up songs on a lavender ukulele to keep my daughter entertained. :band:

:lol:


Steam is messed up. I downloaded it again... I can kind of hear some of the presets... sometimes. I don't know what's up, and the UI is very confusing (I can't even see how to load a wave) but I was able to use the wave files in Poseidon for good ol' fashion resynthesis fun. I wonder what these files are from. They're pretty cool. I could try asking Rurik.
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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codec_spurt
KVRAF
 
3460 posts since 20 Sep, 2005

Postby codec_spurt; Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:52 pm Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

The Fizz was legendary all right.

Half the people swore it sounded like nothing else, and the other half swore it never worked at all.

Don't know personally.

Transwaves. Yes. TS-10 - lucky you! I'd love one of them.


The Transwaves were put together very cleverly. They could be traversed in very clever ways. But it wasn't just the quality of the Transwaves, it was the FX built in as well.

Even on my lowly SD-1 it incorporated the ESP chip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq_Signal_Processor

24-bit FX in a world that wasn't even used to 16 bit. They were ahead of the game. In more ways than one. Why do you think the biggest company in the world at that time with the biggest monopoly bought them out?

The precursor of the heralded DP-4

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~dattorro/DP4.htm

4 ESP chips built into this bad boy.


It's the same story as the earlier disruptive technology of the Korg M1. In fact, the Ensoinq was not as disruptive (maybe the sampler was). But they all got bought out by Emu, Creative et al...

Whatevs...


Half the fun is having the keyboard. Yes they had a nice bed. High end Fatars. Mmmm..

It would be possible to do, but there is no will to do it so it will not happen. Buy a keyboard if you must. You are never going to get that kind of integration in a plug in. I don't know why. This is 20 year old f**king technology for f**k's sake. 2 decades have passed and still, nothing sounds as good, except maybe Korg M1.


Sorry for the rant. I haven't added anything either.

Today you have Wusikstation and the Korg Wavestation (which the Ensoniq was only a poor cousin of anyway, in regard at that time). It is only sound. Fire up SQ8L for free. Really, that thing if you load up four of them at the same time and put on some top notch FX...

Then again, no substitute for having the keys in front of ya.

This is the dilemma. Sorry I only added to it.
You'll be pleased to know, I'm knocking it all on the head.
hersoot
KVRist
 
474 posts since 7 Oct, 2005

Postby hersoot; Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:05 pm Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

About two years ago ConcreteFX made Vectrik freeware: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=355169

I remember it as being prone to crashes (I purchased it several years ago). I recently re-installed it, but this time I did not apply the 1.1 update, and it is more stable without the update installed. As long as it behaves it is one of my favorite synths.

With the right transwave samples it could possibly deliver some fizmoness.
chroma
KVRian
 
551 posts since 10 Jan, 2010

Postby chroma; Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:40 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

zerocrossing wrote:I had to email Puremagnetik to get a download link, but I did get it working. My initial take is there are cool sounds here... but I need to figure out out to edit them. I'm not an expert on editing Live devices and I'm a bit lost. I'll have to see if there are tutorials up somewhere. I think with the Fizmo there were a lot of scanning modes for the transwaves, but I think they're absent here. The transwaves to sound good though in that 90s digital way.


i was more interested in wavescanning some time back, and got waveframe as part of my investigations. it's a noble effort, but it's limited by sampler itself (even though sampler does offer some cool features).

Basically, in a normal sampler, you layout samples by note & velocity. in sampler, it adds a third dimension, a sample selector, which is kind of like a layer. in waveframe, this is connected to a macro knob for 'Wave Frame' (iirc). waveframe does not really use single cycles, but more traditional samples (it looks like at least), one per wave in the transwave. so as you turn the knob, different layers are selected and you get the scanning through the wavetable.

sort of... the limitation is that the sample selector is chosen at note-on, and doesn't change. so if you hold a chord and turn the knob, nothing happens - the original sample chosen continues to be played. so it's a lot closer to something like a tg33 than a fizmo. interesting, but losing the most important part.

for some patches, they tried something that kind of works, but isn't perfect. they basically shaved the attack/release for the samples to 0, and put an arp on it, retriggering every 16th or 32nd note (which is about as far down as the built-in arp can go). because of the zero attack/release, the notes run together and still sound like one continuous sound, but every 16th it's looking at the sample selector and choosing a new sample. obviously, with this method, you can't put any kind of envelope into the sound itself - it has to come from automation, or you driving volume etc. directly. not optimal.

i haven't tried this, but theoretically kontakt can do crossfading after the sample starts (via AET), so it might be possible to put the same samples into kontakt and get something more like true wavescanning, but i haven't tried that.
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Turello
KVRAF
 
2343 posts since 6 Jul, 2012, from Sick-cily

Postby Turello; Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:55 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

@zerocrossing: thanks for informations...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznAYy5yL2A

LOL! :-D
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
 
7187 posts since 26 Jun, 2006, from San Francisco Bay Area

Postby zerocrossing; Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:10 am Re: vsti like Ensoniq Fizmo ?

chroma wrote:so it's a lot closer to something like a tg33 than a fizmo. interesting, but losing the most important part.


Yeah, that is what I basically discovered, but put more eloquently. It gave me another idea though. One might instead use a granular synth to achieve the kind of "wave scanning" we're after. No?
Zerocrossing Media
http://www.zerocrossing.net
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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