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Am, F, G, Em

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.

Moderator: Moderators (Main)

KVRist
 
36 posts since 24 Dec, 2011

Postby maudioradium; Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:27 pm Am, F, G, Em

Those notes above...F and G are obvious, but whats am and em?

If em is "e minor" then how would you type "e major" if the m is the same?

Thanks.
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KVRAF
 
3944 posts since 6 Sep, 2006, from Elk Grove, CA

Postby cryophonik; Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:33 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

maudioradium wrote:Those notes above...F and G are obvious,...


They refer to chords, not notes. A minor, F major, G major, E minor (i.e., the major triad is implied, while the "m" denotes a minor chord)
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KVRAF
 
8848 posts since 12 Mar, 2012, from South Bavaria - near the alps... :-)

Postby Tricky-Loops; Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:03 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

There are also FMaj and GMaj chords...
KVRian
 
670 posts since 1 Dec, 2004

Postby MadBrain; Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:05 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

Chords are major by default. "m" is added to make them minor (some jazz parts use "-" instead, giving A- F G E-).

Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default. To get a major 7th, you write Cmaj7 (C E G B). This can be combined with a minor 3rd, giving Cmmaj7 (C Eb G B).
KVRer
 
1 post since 16 Jan, 2012

Postby ShredX; Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:30 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

Typically, M = Major m = minor, or as already mentioned Maj for Major. Also, on occaision you will find a triangle drawn in after the chord to show it is Major. Most common is no M noted (as above with the F & G) is Major and a lowercase m is minor.
KVRian
 
670 posts since 1 Dec, 2004

Postby MadBrain; Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:32 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

ShredX wrote:Typically, M = Major m = minor, or as already mentioned Maj for Major. Also, on occaision you will find a triangle drawn in after the chord to show it is Major. Most common is no M noted (as above with the F & G) is Major and a lowercase m is minor.

Triangle is a jazz shortand for "maj7", ie that the chord has a 7th and that this 7th is major.
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KVRAF
 
19832 posts since 26 Jul, 2005, from Inside Schroedinger's Cat...or am I...

Postby robojam; Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:34 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.

Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.
KVRian
 
670 posts since 1 Dec, 2004

Postby MadBrain; Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:26 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

robojam wrote:
MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.

Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.

No, I mean a minor 7th, counting from the chord root.
C7 = C E G Bb (Bb is a minor 7th higher than C)
Cm7 = C Eb G Bb (Bb is also a minor 7th higher than C)
Cm7b5 = C Eb Gb Bb (Bb is still a minor 7th higher than C)

A diminished 7th (essentially a major 6th) happens only in diminished chords:
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb (Bbb is a diminished 7th up from C). This is often spelled as C Eb Gb A to avoid the double-flat spelling.
KVRian
 
1140 posts since 10 Oct, 2004

Postby JumpingJackFlash; Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:45 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

My post here might be helpful.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.
KVRAF
 
9263 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:26 am Re: Am, F, G, Em

robojam wrote:
MadBrain wrote:Chords which have a 7th, such as C7 (C E G Bb), use a minor 7th by default.

Do you mean diminished instead of minor? If you don't specify minor or Major, the assumption is a diminished Major 7th.

When you see plain ol' "C7" in a lead sheet or what-have-you, you assume Bb, right? That is a minor seventh from the root of the C chord.
So it is a *major, minor seventh* chord.
A *minor, minor seventh* chord: eg., C Eb G Bb.
A diminished seventh here will be B double flat, almost always off a diminished triad, eg., C Eb Gb Bbb. (*diminished, diminished seventh*)
'Half diminished', eg., C Eb Gb Bb, is a *diminished, minor seventh* chord. Aka minor seven flat five chord.

The way we call seventh is, in descending order: major, minor, diminished. You may think of C-Bb as 'diminishing' the size of the C-B interval in literal terms, but the thing is known as minor.
This naming is true of thirds as well, albeit E double flat vis a vis C, a diminished third is not real common as it is usually a major second. Same with sixths.

An otherwise 'Perfect' fifth, fourth, or octave is augmented or diminished right away, with no major or minor quality.
KVRist
 
286 posts since 25 Apr, 2006

Postby musikjock; Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:56 am Re: Am, F, G, Em

I was reading a few of the posts on notating a C7 and what is refers to..and I started getting confused myself for a second. but then I slowly X'd out kvr and back away.

but really, it seems this is becoming over-thought even by the most seasoned players here. Perhaps I am wrong too, but when I see in a chord chard a 'C7' (or any letter with only a 7 attached to it) I think of 2 things and only 2 things:

1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd

unless I am incorrect (which does tend to happen more then I'd like!), theres nothing more to a C7 than a C major with a flatted 7th.

When it comes to most music theory- especially at the more basic level- the key IMO is more being able to RELATE to the material, than just understanding the concept.
"You must not only aim aright, but draw the bow with all your might."
KVRAF
 
9263 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:35 am Re: Am, F, G, Em

I felt like sorting robojam's 'diminished major 7' which isn't a useful term, by how the terms are arrived at.

1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd

Why is it a 'flat' 7th? The largest thing we can call a seventh is called major; below that, it's called minor; below that it's called diminished. :shrug:

I saw no overthinking. I saw underthinking with MB's 'the chords default to major, the seventh defaults to minor'. There is no default chord or default seventh, that's talking about names in pop music kind of charts.
You see 'C7', yes, 'E' & 'Bb' is the assumption. This was clear before you posted, I believe.
Your 'major/flat seventh chord' is known as 'major/minor seventh' as a completely objective term.

If one should become more interested and take a course, one is likely to find 'seventh chord' only means 'there is a seventh (of some quality) in addition to a triad'.
Your 'overthinking' is really 'more thorough than I'd like at this stage', isn't it.
KVRist
 
286 posts since 25 Apr, 2006

Postby musikjock; Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

jancivil wrote:I felt like sorting robojam's 'diminished major 7' which isn't a useful term, by how the terms are arrived at.

1. this has a flat 7th
2. This has a major 3rd

Why is it a 'flat' 7th? The largest thing we can call a seventh is called major; below that, it's called minor; below that it's called diminished. :shrug:


As a musician I am very (too much) self taught: Not in the sense of total lack or disregard for theory, but rather I attempted to teach myself without the guise of a proper instructor or mentor,,which is very unfortunate and often creates a bit of a communication barrier when I discuss music with somebody who was properly trained..or anybody other than myself for that matter.

1 such byproduct of this ^^ is that I tend to sometimes use the major scale as a roadmap by default when I shouldn't. So, in the above case of C7: I know the defining characteristic is in the major 3rd/ minor 7th combination, and when I try to visualize that, I take the C major scale's 7th degree and flatten the note 1 semitone. thus I say to myself flatted 7th. thank you for reminding me that is not the way to communicate the idea.

I saw no overthinking. I saw underthinking with MB's 'the chords default to major, the seventh defaults to minor'.


I wouldn't phrase it as 'under-thinking' at all, but rather just 'inaccurate 'thinking' that seemed a little extraneous. In fact, as someone who seems pretty active and interested in music theory, I very much assumed that MB just had a brain fart, and may have been examining too many elements while trying to explain the chords actual meaning. Hence, the reason I fibbed about 'overthinking'.

And just to note, I'm not sure if you thought that comment was directed at you, but it was not at all. In fact, your initial response could not have been any more on the money.


There is no default chord or default seventh, that's talking about names in pop music kind of charts.
You see 'C7', yes, 'E' & 'Bb' is the assumption. This was clear before you posted, I believe.

To most ppl, you are probably correct. However, your parlance can sometimes be overwhelming to the ppl who are teaching themselves or just getting started. I know that when I am doing self study, I routinely have to google these classical terms to get myself up to speed.
That said, I felt it may be helpful post to those who are new to this and trying to grasp everything you said in your earlier posts but still feel overwhelmed.

Your 'overthinking' is really 'more thorough than I'd like at this stage', isn't it.


Not at all. I am confident I understand the implication and application of a dominant..err, 'major flat 7th' :) But If there is another stage here that I have yet to arrive at- that will improve my application of music- I am all ears.
"You must not only aim aright, but draw the bow with all your might."
KVRAF
 
9263 posts since 20 Oct, 2007

Postby jancivil; Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:24 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

musikjock wrote:
1 such byproduct of this ^^ is that I tend to sometimes use the major scale as a roadmap by default when I shouldn't. So, in the above case of C7: I know the defining characteristic is in the major 3rd/ minor 7th combination, and when I try to visualize that, I take the C major scale's 7th degree and flatten the note 1 semitone. thus I say to myself flatted 7th. thank you for reminding me that is not the way to communicate the idea.

It's fine, I asked the rhetorical question to indicate what's being flatted. The largest seventh that really works as a seventh is called major. 'Flat 7th' is normal, most everybody would call it that. My post was primarily out of sorting 'diminished major 7th' which is a confusion of terms. 'Flat the seventh' doesn't bring in another named interval, 'diminished' so we would prefer that. But we should know from 'Major; smaller than that by a semitone is minor; smaller than that by a semitone is diminished' in terms of sevenths, thirds and sixths. Albeit diminished in the latter two cases is unusual.
Exception: there is a meaningful augmented sixth (while eg., 'augmented seventh', or third not so much) out of how it works. That is more 'second year: chromatic', though.

overthinking

I'm not sure if you thought that comment was directed at you, but it was not at all. In fact, your initial response could not have been any more on the money.

Not really, MB had provided the same level of detail, I took it as a general comment on either/both.

I didn't like 'the chord defaults to major' some time ago, but not motivated really to post that objection, I think everybody knows what he meant. Then I noticed 'diminished major' and decided to sort that.

your parlance can sometimes be overwhelming to the ppl who are teaching themselves or just getting started. I know that when I am doing self study, I routinely have to google these classical terms to get myself up to speed.

I'm unsure of what is overwhelming. 'major/minor seventh' comes from 1st year 'diatonic harmony' at community college for me, and after that was the same terminology.
I don't know why it's more daunting than "1. This has a flat 7th. 2. This has a major 3rd."

It's objective. IE: While practically everybody knows what we mean by 'flat 7th', the seventh of V7 (eg., G7 in key of C) is diatonic, nothing was flatted.
I say these things as food for thought.

The type does occur typically in functional harmony as 'dominant seventh' but in say James Brown, as the main chord in a vamp, it isn't that thing at all. But 'E7' is fine.
KVRist
 
337 posts since 24 Jul, 2008, from Quake central, New Zealand

Postby someone called simon; Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:49 pm Re: Am, F, G, Em

Can you clear up some misapprehensions I may have had about chord names here...

jancivil wrote:A diminished seventh here will be B double flat, almost always off a diminished triad, eg., C Eb Gb Bbb. (*diminished, diminished seventh*)

when you say Bbb, is that equivalent in pitch to an A? If not, what does it mean? If so, I have always just called this chord a 'diminished', and thought of it as having minor 3rd, flat 5th, and a 6th rather than a double flattened 7th. Is there a reason I shouldn't think of that note as a 6th?
And, I always called the chord you mention below a 'diminished seventh', as it had a 7th instead of the 6th I talk of above. I have heard of half diminished but thought it synonymous with diminished seventh.
jancivil wrote:'Half diminished', eg., C Eb Gb Bb, is a *diminished, minor seventh* chord. Aka minor seven flat five chord.
I used to be Zoing, now I am not.
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