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KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion

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adamm
KVRer
 
11 posts since 24 Oct, 2012, from NYC

Postby adamm; Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:40 pm Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

That is very cool. Nice work!
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lachrimae
KVRist
 
110 posts since 7 Feb, 2014, from Austin, Tejas

Postby lachrimae; Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:43 pm Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

I think I mentioned analyzers in general earlier in this thread, but to be more specific:

I'm not aware of a high quality 3D multi-channel spectrogram aside from what you can get with Izotope's Insight, but that's like $500 and is bundled with several other analyzing tools.

A 3D zoom-able multi-channel spectrogram that looks as good or better than Izotope's would be a winner in my book :).
mridlen
KVRist
 
204 posts since 2 Oct, 2012

Postby mridlen; Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:06 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

michat wrote:And (like the years before) I want a synthesizer with similar possibilities like the Kurzweil VAST synthesis


Agreed!

BR808 is pretty close, but too buggy and CPU hungry to use frequently, and does not seem to get any updates.
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mysticvibes
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1148 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby mysticvibes; Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:44 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

I want to see a good filter that displays the note the cutoff filter is at?
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BlackWinny
KVRAF
 
1991 posts since 17 Jun, 2013, from very close to Paris, France

Postby BlackWinny; Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:23 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

mysticvibes wrote:I want to see a good filter that displays the note the cutoff filter is at?

It can't.

Because the cutoff is set at a frequency, not at a note. Why? Because the developer of that filter can't assume which scale and temperament you are using in your composition. And without talking about microtuning.

Do you use the A at 440 Hz? Perhaps... but it can't assume.

For the New York Philharmonic Orchestra and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, the A is not at 440 Hz but at 442 Hz, which is also quite often used by some orchestras (and even grand philharmonic orchestras!) in many european countries.

And in some other countries, orchestras use the A often neither at 440 nor at 442 but even at 443 Hz. It is for example the case of the very famous Berliner Philharmoniker Orchestra.

It depends also the type of music you play (think of the jazz music, for example, and the most modern fusion-jazz, and the krautrock, and the experimental music, and the emulations of old or traditional acoustic instruments in modern music), the age of the score (in baroque music, when I played baroque flutes and oboes in little formations, we had to use even an A at 415 Hz to respect exactly the score and prevent some strange inharmonic chords), etc.

And what about the unfretted string instruments? When you tune a cello, generally you use a diapason at A=220. But it is mathematically impossible to respect the equal temperament in instruments without frets. Therefore the perfect fifth is about two cents false in the equal temperament, and the bigger string of the cello can't be at less than six cents flat from the correct tuning in the equal temperament.

Hence... if you use a synth to emulate these unfretted strings, you can't say that this note is equal to that frequency, and the drift is proportional to the octave!

And what about pentatonic and heptatonic scales and their specific temperaments for certain music? What about the pythagorician scale? What about these unnumerable ethnic scales and temperaments?
  • All the many Maqam scales and temperaments
  • All the many Japanese scales and temperaments
  • All the many chinese and vietnamese scales and temperaments
  • All the many indian scales and temperaments
  • All the many indonesian scales and temperaments used in the Gamelan
  • All the many equatonal scales and temperaments of Thailand
  • All the many african scales and temperaments, and especially of West Africa
  • All the many greek, turkish, armenian scales and temperaments
  • Etc.

They are not only ways to manage the notes to use in the scales and temperaments, but also different frequencies. And many of these ethnic scales and temperaments are used also in modern music. Europe/USA has wanted to take the hegemony on the rules of the music (modern as well as classic) but everywhere in the world the majority of composers say no to this hegemony and keep their frequencies, modes, scales and temperaments, even in their most modern music and in bands having composers and musicians from several countries. And I don't talk about the microtonal music, very used in synths.

Search the terms "musical temperaments", "equal temperament", "meantone temperament" on the web, and you'll understand why neither an oscillator nor a filter can't convert a frequency to a note name... because it would assume the use of the hegemonic equal temperament stated as ISO norm in 1939, then repeated as a quasi-law after the International London Conference of 1953, then once more repeated as an authoritary law (yes!) in the text of the ANSI norm in 1975... and piss on the others. And to refuse that sort of authoritary law, many orchestras and even grand international orchestras don't want to use that ANSI/ISO norm because in fact it is all but the best fashion to respect the way the instruments work and to respect the unnumerable musics of the world which are a huge part of the history (still living!) of the music!

And the most modern music not only don't escape to these unnumerable temperaments... but is also an enthralling way to vary the temperaments, the scales... and to mix traditional ethnic sounds with modern synth sounds.

Your suggestion to show something as a precise value when you turn the cutt-off knob of a filter is good (as well as the knob of an oscillator), yes, it is a good suggestion... but not to show a note name since it is impossible, but to show simply the exact frequency of the cut-off position in the frequency spectrum. And it is the musician himself who has to master the way he uses these frequencies.
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Uncle E
KVRAF
 
6575 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:03 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

BlackWinny wrote:
mysticvibes wrote:I want to see a good filter that displays the note the cutoff filter is at?

It can't.

Because the cutoff is set at a frequency, not at a note. Why? Because the developer of that filter can't assume which scale and temperament you are using in your composition. And without talking about microtuning.

Do you use the A at 440 Hz? Perhaps... but it can't assume.


It can make that assumption and then make it the responsibility of the user to adjust if they are not working at A 440. There are many filter plugins available, I think it's alright for there to exist one that doesn't meet everyone's needs.
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mysticvibes
KVRian
 
1148 posts since 2 Oct, 2008

Postby mysticvibes; Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:38 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

Why then not a filter that displays the note the cutoff filter is at with microtuning, tempermant, and scale selection options?

Thanks BlackWinny for your in depth reply, bookmarked the page for thorough reading later.
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Kroneborge
KVRer
 
10 posts since 28 Jan, 2013, from Near Santa Barbara CA

Postby Kroneborge; Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:51 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

I would love to see a VST version of the Yamaha FS1R, I have the hardware version and love the sound and modulation, but I hate using outboard gear, and trying to program through the tiny little screen even more.
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Uncle E
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6575 posts since 21 Nov, 2000, from Southern California

Postby Uncle E; Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:53 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

Kroneborge wrote:I would love to see a VST version of the Yamaha FS1R, I have the hardware version and love the sound and modulation, but I hate using outboard gear, and trying to program through the tiny little screen even more.


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Kroneborge
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10 posts since 28 Jan, 2013, from Near Santa Barbara CA

Postby Kroneborge; Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:15 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

I actually thought about trying to program the FS1R in Reactor, although I'm not that great with Reactor, I think it would probably be possible.
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BlackWinny
KVRAF
 
1991 posts since 17 Jun, 2013, from very close to Paris, France

Postby BlackWinny; Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:00 pm Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

Wow!

It would be nice, yes. And even awesome and a huge challenge!

Hem... I just think that the price would be huge too!

Unless we had to do with a poor emulation which would stay at the level of the dozens of very common FM emulations we see everywhere around us (very few stant out from the crowd).

A very good emulation of the FS1R would be very long and very hard to create, and of course with a proportional price.

But yes, it it worth it... even at the price of an FM8 I would pay for it. Without any hesitation.
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
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BlackWinny
KVRAF
 
1991 posts since 17 Jun, 2013, from very close to Paris, France

Postby BlackWinny; Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:09 pm Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

It would be for example something that I'd really enjoy to see coming from the brains of XILS-Lab (who are focused on excellent emulations but have yet never released any FM emulation) or other companies at that excellent level having already an excellent experience in emulations of "vintage" synths (not necessary analogue, and I put "vintage" in quotes because the FS1R is not so old).

An FM synth having 16 operators and being multitimbral with four parts... it's not at the reach of an ordinary developer...
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
Kroneborge
KVRer
 
10 posts since 28 Jan, 2013, from Near Santa Barbara CA

Postby Kroneborge; Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:48 pm Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

Yes, I'm really surprised that one of them hasn't done this before. There's been enough variations of the moog's etc, why not an FS1R.

Maybe I'll put it on my to do list and work on it over the next couple of years. I have to master Hollywood Strings first though!
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Aly James
KVRist
 
113 posts since 8 Jun, 2011, from French Riviera

Postby Aly James; Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:25 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

BlackWinny wrote:It would be for example something that I'd really enjoy to see coming from the brains of XILS-Lab (who are focused on excellent emulations but have yet never released any FM emulation) or other companies at that excellent level having already an excellent experience in emulations of "vintage" synths (not necessary analogue, and I put "vintage" in quotes because the FS1R is not so old).

An FM synth having 16 operators and being multitimbral with four parts... it's not at the reach of an ordinary developer...


Did you know that the formant thing in the FS1R is the result of an upaded old technology called CSM (aka Composite Sine Wave Modeling) Yamaha implemented it in early 4 operators FM chip and removed that later because it was kind of hard to program and there was no support for that function built in.
The YM2612 aka the custom FM chip from the Sega Megadrive Console featured the CSM mode and I think I am the only one who has emulated it accurately in my FMDrive VSTi.
It cannot reach what you can do with an FS1R which has way more operators but is interesting and quite unique as is.
A bit about how that work: When CSM mode is on, each operator is re-triggered automatically in a loop at hi-speed, the speed is controlled by an internal timer, called Timer A, it also reset the phase.
There is a theory using FFT to "de compose" the frequency content of a signal into a sum a different sine waves, in the time domain with different pitches and volumes.
Based on this theory, If you play at the same time more than one sine at an appropriate volume and frequencies , you can reproduce the waveform similar to the original waveform.
YM2612 can output 4 sines with 4 different frequencies and 4 different volume.
FMDRIVE Vst uses that with MIDI CH1 ,11 ,12 ,13 to control Frequency and Volume, an additional CH 14 controls the timer A.
You can also midi learn these controls to any midi controller and you're good for some live talking shit :)

This mode is also useful to output new type of sounds similar to having a powerful filter on board...and that is what is very interesting in addition to the speech thing.
My testing have shown some really cool stuff :tu:
Here is 2 basic examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5f35tXF1Q
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMRvCyCRjXE
thunderkyss
KVRist
 
65 posts since 23 Oct, 2003, from Port Arthur, TX

Postby thunderkyss; Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:24 am Re: KVRDC 2014 - What Kind Of Instrument Would You Like To See?

BlackWinny wrote:
mysticvibes wrote:I want to see a good filter that displays the note the cutoff filter is at?

It can't.

Your suggestion to show something as a precise value when you turn the cutt-off knob of a filter is good (as well as the knob of an oscillator), yes, it is a good suggestion... but not to show a note name since it is impossible, but to show simply the exact frequency of the cut-off position in the frequency spectrum. And it is the musician himself who has to master the way he uses these frequencies.


The Prophet 08 shows the note names (C0, D0... C10, etc...) instead of -12, -36, +12, etc....

I guess it's all in how you wrap your head around it. The instrument is still divided into 12 equal tones, so it's all relative. I can change the tuning, standard is A=440..... the note names will still be the same, relative to that pitch. But I get what you're saying, it may not be very "accurate" to use note names.
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