KVR MIX CHALLENGE - MC03 August 2014 - Voting period has ended, Winners announced (pg 17)

[mwaudioprod]

Here is mine:

Soundcloud:
WAV 44.1kHz 24bit
https://soundcloud.com/junitoh/if-i-get ... oh/s-dlj1e

MP3(320kbit)
https://soundcloud.com/junitoh/if-i-get ... p3/s-uMXNA

I was challenged for the first time.

It was found this challenge, because it was three days ago of the deadline, I did not have time.

My English is poor sorry.

Thank you.

Mixing Note------
about 8 hours in my bedroom studio.

Vocal
<Inserts>
EQ 01 Low Cut
EQ 02 Hi & Mid Boost , Mid Hi Cut
Comp & Saturation
EQ 03 5kHz few Boost - more power voice impact
Saturation 02 - more power
DeEsser
Comp Model 670 -I like Fairchild sound
Limiter -few Gain redaction
<sends>
Vocal Reverb 01
-Large Rev>Comp>EQ>Comp
Vocal Reverb 02
-Delay>Reverb>Comp

Kick
Multi band comp - Redaction Hi-Attack Kick tone(More deep tone)
EQ - Low & Mid cut
Comp - More Transient
Gate - Release control
Comp - add punch kick tone

Snare
EQ - Low&Hi Cut
Comp - Snapping sound
EQ - Mid & Hi Boost

HiHat
EQ - Low cut
Tap simulator - tone control analoge
EQ - Hi Boost
Limiter -More Punch

Tom
Reverb - add power & tone
Comp - more power & impact

other Drums instrument
　EQ - Low Cut
Comp - add power

Bass
EQ 01 - Low Mid Cut
EQ 02 - Low&Hi Boost
Saturation - Tape & Tube Saturation
Limiter - more Loud & Power

Synth &Transition EFx Channels
EQ - Low Cut & Tone Control
Comp - Volume Control
SidechainComp - trigged Kick. few gain ridaction(-3dB to -6dB)

Hey junitoh, great mix. I like the new arranging of the vocal. What have you had on the master bus?

[mwaudioprod]

My submission:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5dzijefy2aro5 ... 20Deer.wav

I have a general fx chain I use mostly to different degrees on tracks and busses, and this mix was no exception. It consists of Scheps/Slate VCC, VTM/Satin or Reelbuss, NI Solid EQ/DYN, and NI VC 2a/76. On several tracks I used reverb sends to NI RC24 large hall setting to glue it together a bit and a pod farm delay on lead vocal.

Nice mix jimmydeer. What have you had on the master bus?

[Grant S]

I do thank you for the statistics and so far the normalization process seems transparent enough. All really cool ideas throughout the different mixes. I have decided pretty much the mixes I'm favoring from auditioning them. Trying to correlate the mixes I'm favoring to their corresponding stats to see if there is something quantifiable in the numbers to indicate why I like them. So far that hasn't happened...

A few things I noticed that I'm unsure if it's a cause for concern is. True bit depth, I noticed mine and another member fell below the normal. Is this cause for concern if they were sent to a mastering engineer for final mastering? Would dithering solve it?

DC offset: Not something I thought was an issue now days, I was under the impression that my DAW took care of that as a normal process. Does this data show that only 6 tracks had no DC offset issues? Is this a matter for the engineer to address or should it be corrected by the mastering engineer?

One day, I do plan to learn more about mastering and the plugs used to do it. I notice a pattern of guys that I have the most respect for that follow the rule of, whoever does the mixing is too involved to be objectionable about it's mastering and should be done by someone else regardless of the mastering skill of the mixer. Not really sure if all that still holds true today, it does seem the job of mix and master are being combined into one process now that single mp3 tracks are the norm.

As far as the normalizing, I'm going to have to ride the fence on it's effectiveness in judging these type of things as I'm still on the fence as to if it's a good or bad idea for those with the tools and skill to just go ahead and master the track and be done with it if there is no compilation for it to go on.

Still keeping an open mind....

[Compyfox]

A few things I noticed that I'm unsure if it's a cause for concern is. True bit depth, I noticed mine and another member fell below the normal. Is this cause for concern if they were sent to a mastering engineer for final mastering? Would dithering solve it?

Shouldn't be a concern. Can be happening due to various things:
- flopped bit with specific used plugins
- your host might have issues (rare)
- "underusing" the available dynamic range of your setup. i.e. 24bit can have a dynamic range of over 110dB from noise floor to digital max limit. If you don't use it, chances are that he analysis might show you "not all bits were used".

Again, mostly nothing much of your concern - and Dithering wouldn't fix it. Unless you dither a step lower (i.e. 24bit down to 16bit). Which you shouldn't do if you don't master your track yourself and the release is either CD or "normal quality" MP3.

DC offset: Not something I thought was an issue now days, I was under the impression that my DAW took care of that as a normal process. Does this data show that only 6 tracks had no DC offset issues? Is this a matter for the engineer to address or should it be corrected by the mastering engineer?

This can also be due to several things.

To my understanding, and according to tech papers, it's an "offset" of the voltage while recording. If you fixed the offset prior to mixing (most hosts offer that feature) but still have it after mix down (shown in the analysis), then chances are that you might have introduced DC offset again.

It's actually fairly simple as well why that may be the case: with an analog type plugin that has this offset modeled. Or you do several bounces and your host doesn't clean ones.

If it's around the -100dB are, it's usually not a real problem. Unless you stack several tracks on top of it or try heavy compression. This can cause both noise issues, and compressors might not respond properly.

This is usually something that the mastering engineer fixes/reduces prior to starting his work.

One day, I do plan to learn more about mastering and the plugs used to do it. I notice a pattern of guys that I have the most respect for that follow the rule of, whoever does the mixing is too involved to be objectionable about it's mastering and should be done by someone else regardless of the mastering skill of the mixer. Not really sure if all that still holds true today, it does seem the job of mix and master are being combined into one process now that single mp3 tracks are the norm.

The lines sure are blurry these days. But I always try not to master my own stuff. Though if I have to, I take a couple of days off in between. And even then, I barely need drastic edits these days (my chain is mostly only bx_control for M/S tricks, an EQ, a limiter and an analysis tool).

As far as the normalizing, I'm going to have to ride the fence on it's effectiveness in judging these type of things as I'm still on the fence as to if it's a good idea for those with the tools and skill to just go ahead and master the track and be done with it if there is no compilation for it to go on.

Still keeping an open mind....

Again, mastering is not the focus of this challenge.

The focus is to mix as well as possible, within certain limits. And with the loudness normalization, we offer the opportunity to listen to all tracks at a unified "perceived" signal strength. So no clouding due to different signal levels - you instantly hear pro's/con's.

Even if we'd do a mastering challenge, we'd still say "being loud is not the focus, but being as balanced and as transparent as possible". If we go that route someday, I'd loudness normalize as well to show the nuances rather than who is the loudest.

Loud != good most of the time
The loudness war is long over IMO.

("!=" means "does not equal", for those that never worked with logical modules)

[Grant S]

Thanks for the detailed response

[junitoh]

Hey junitoh, great mix. I like the new arranging of the vocal. What have you had on the master bus?

[/quote]

Hi mwaudioprod

Thank you !!

My master bus is ...

Master tube comp - Few Redaction(only 0dB to -1dB)
Linear Phase EQ - Low & Hi Boost
MultiBand Comp - Peak control all range & Low more tight.
Master Comp(MS Mode) - Control Side & Mid image
L3 - Loudness control

I'm changing the plug-in to use the type of song

ex. L3 or Sonnox Limiter or T-Racks Brickwall Limiter or Flux Pure Limiter

[Compyfox]

Aside from the loudness "control" (a slight loudness raise with the limiter), I didn't expect that this song was "(pre)mastered". I think I'll need to update the spec sheet.


EDIT: Just updated it with the info "confirmed pre-mastering".

[chaosbringer]

Good luck everyone

I'll leave feedback after the voting process, cause for all I know I could be completely wrong how I go about things! haha

[camsr]

Thanks for the ZIP file Compyfox, I must use EQ on my playback because my headphones have some nasty resonance (Grado SR125) in the treble.

[solidtrax]

In the mix statistics it says that my track is probably pre-mastered. I think I said it two times already that I did not. What I also said is that I think I used a bit to much mix bus compression. See what I did there? MIX bus compression.. That's right, having a compressor on the mix is not by default pre-mastering, it's for many mixer engineers a tool to reach a specific sound. My track has not been enhanced by any form of brick wall limiting or digital clipping as found on tracks I did (pre-)master myself.

I'm interested to find out what exactly in my mixing makes it sound like it has been pre-mastered. I think I did alter the dynamics of certain instruments to much, that might be it. I'm going back to the "drawing board" to improve my mix. I never stop learning.

[Compyfox]

Thanks for the ZIP file Compyfox, I must use EQ on my playback because my headphones have some nasty resonance (Grado SR125) in the treble.

Maybe this might be up your alley, camsr.
Though I didn't try it myself yet. But it's popping up once in a while.

I'm interested to find out what exactly in my mixing makes it sound like it has been pre-mastered. I think I did alter the dynamics of certain instruments to much, that might be it. I'm going back to the "drawing board" to improve my mix. I never stop learning.

I took a closer look at the waveform and I went by plain numbers. The "probably premastered" is only an indicator.

Let's take a look what I wrote: avg RMS -16dBFS, max RMS -12,8dBFS, max peak -0,16dBTP, DR 12,6, 16bit.

As somebody that is also active in the mastering realm, this usually gives me two indications:
a) premastered (if the song was mixed at a lower reference level)
b) probably high reference level (in this case, I'd look like the reference level was -14dBFS = 0VU), with the rouge peaks being in check with a limiter on the master bus. Then again, this high peak value and dithered down to 16bit can also mean that it's actually clipping (the true peak meter warning LED didn't light up - so all is fine).

The dynamic range however shows that this mix is not overly compressed due to the strong transients of your snare drum. You probably used a very fast compressor on this one, so the peak of the snare is really reaching high, while the "body" (the sustain) of it blends into the mix. It feels like you'd get a smack into your face. This caught me off guard. Else, the production sounded just a bit squashed to me.

Also, you dithered down to 16bit while the source files were 24bit.

Which is why I made the comment.



Looks like my ears were fooled, even after Loudness Normalization (which is actually a good thing, maybe at a different loudness, I would have fooled by something else).


EDIT:
Updated the statistics, tried to make some comments more clear

[Marando]

I listened to all 23 tracks and I must say, not one sounds the same. The difference between the tracks is, in many cases, huge.

I didn't compete so it's easy for me to be negative about the tracks, but keep in mind, this is just the opinion of one individual, and I'm not saying that I'm the expert. If you don't agree with my findings, that's totally fine. I'm entitled to have an opinion, and so is everyone else in this world. So, now that we have that out of the way, here it goes.

I listened in an acoustically treated room and switched between KRK V6 monitors (near field) and Monitor Audio RS5 (hifi speakers placed further away). I also listened on AKG K702 headphones.

Lead vocal off-key
Many tracks didn't have the vocal pitch corrected in the later part of the track, where it is very obvious that it needs a re-recording or pitch correction. Since it was impossible to opt for option one, the only solution left was option two: pitch correction.

It is a mixing contest, and imho, fixing pitch errors is a part of the job. I'm not saying that you have to use auto tune from start to finish, but fixing some key elements, some parts that are to much off key, should really be considered.

Levels all over the place
Many tracks have the levels all over the place. Vocals that are way to loud compared to the music, or way to soft. Snares that are way louder than anything else from the drums, synth lines that are to loud or to soft. This makes me think that many people mixed in a room that has bad studio monitors and/or bad acoustics. I can be wrong, but I have no other explanation for the levels to be so off in many tracks. It doesn't sound like any commercial released track that I'm familiar with. Yeah, I know those are mastered, but a mix and a master shouldn't sound day and night apart, mastering should be just the finishing touches.

Use of FX
Some tracks are drowning in FX (reverb/delay) that it makes it difficult to follow what is going on. Instruments are all in the same pool, swimming for their lives. Again, I think this is directly related to the monitoring situation. Bad monitors and/or acoustics can make you miss judge the amount of FX you need to use completely.

Timing issues
A few tracks have the tracks not aligned correctly, maybe on purpose, maybe by accident.
However, it makes it very difficult to focus on the music when the timing feels off. Even if the mixing is actually among the best out there in a specific situation, it makes it impossible to vote for it, as making sure the tracks are aligned correctly and that there are no timing issues is also a part of mixing, imho.

Overall sound
Some tracks sound as if there is a blanket laying over my monitors, it sounds muffled ,if that is correct English. There are also tracks that sound very harmonically rich, as if the whole track is saturated. I probably like the saturated tracks better than the muffled sounding tracks, but both, imho, are not sounding like any commercial released track I know.

So yeah, I have been pretty negative and I hope you are not going to kill me for it, I'm just expressing my honest opinion, based on listening to the tracks in an environment that I believe makes it possible to judge it correctly. I'm sincerely afraid that a pretty high amount of the people that competed this mixing contest have some serious problems in their monitoring/room setup. I'm also afraid that this, in turn, makes it impossible for them to judge the mixes correctly. How are you able to say if a certain track is good or bad, when you can not hear what is actually going on in the music in the first place.

Again, I didn't compete, and I'm not saying I could do it any better than any of the people that submitted a mix. I think it's awesome people are submitting tracks, and I know it's not fun to receive critique. But without it, how can you improve?

I didn't put any names in this post, as the voting is not finished and I don't want to influence people to much. However, if you competed and you want to know how I feel about your track, feel free to send me a PM. I'm more than willing to tell you my honest and polite opinion.

[Compyfox]

You can still vote though, and I think your "broad given" input is definitely appreciated.


In my case, I know what issues I have - no need to ignore them.

For example:
- the track is a bit muffled (vocals mainly, which is an easy fix) - overall "muffled sound" is the easiest fix during mastering btw!
- vocals drown a bit in the music (slight instrument signal level issues)
- one part is not pitch corrected (not telling which, never thought it needed correction)
- reverb is too bright here and there


I revisited the track and fixed a couple of issues that I felt needed to be addressed with the tools that were already used (additional 30 minutes spent - so simple fixes really). Like with MC02, I will wait until after the voting process to post that. Given the time I had to mix parallel to my "offline world" and helping managing the MC, I still tried to pull all tricks possible and then some. And I think I did well regardless - fairly confident about that.


Regarding the vocals being off pitch:
Those that exclusively used the extras only to recreate tracks, definitely needed to use pitch correction for the main vocal part here and there (with emphasis on "at places"). Else, the main parts were already fixed by the song provider with Melodyne. So no need to pitch correct on top of pitch correction. At least IMO.


Vocals being drastically offset - oh yeah, that happened in a lot of tracks.
Even though we made sure that people know where to place the files. Sadly it looks like not even the reference tracks were consulted.



Again, your feedback is appreciated - and this is what this challenge is all about: learning process.
Maybe we'll see you join next time?

[satYatunes]

So yeah, I have been pretty negative and I hope you are not going to kill me for it, I'm just expressing my honest opinion, based on listening to the tracks in an environment that I believe makes it possible to judge it correctly. I'm sincerely afraid that a pretty high amount of the people that competed this mixing contest have some serious problems in their monitoring/room setup. I'm also afraid that this, in turn, makes it impossible for them to judge the mixes correctly. How are you able to say if a certain track is good or bad, when you can not hear what is actually going on in the music in the first place.

Thanks for your feedback. I listened the tracks yesterday and couldn't agree more with your comments.

[photonic]

So yeah, I have been pretty negative and I hope you are not going to kill me for it, I'm just expressing my honest opinion, based on listening to the tracks in an environment that I believe makes it possible to judge it correctly. I'm sincerely afraid that a pretty high amount of the people that competed this mixing contest have some serious problems in their monitoring/room setup. I'm also afraid that this, in turn, makes it impossible for them to judge the mixes correctly. How are you able to say if a certain track is good or bad, when you can not hear what is actually going on in the music in the first place.

Thanks for your feedback. I listened the tracks yesterday and couldn't agree more with your comments.

I totally agree! I listened to the tracks yesterday too and came to very similar conclusion. Instead of asking you for you opinion in a PM I would like to see your voting of all tracks. So please take the chance and participate the voting.