Roland D-50 Emulations???

[fmr]

I use my DAW OS lifted of internet and other services ... It would not a problem to get the samples of an original D-50

Maybe something got lost in the translation, you are legit right?

What would be illegal in getting the samples of a D-50? The only thing illegal would be to sell products based on them, but anyone can get the samples for their own use. What would prevent me of sampling my V-Synth XT D-50 and use the samples? And what would prevent me of renting a D-50 and sampling it, using the samples for my own productions?

[Numanoid]

What would be illegal in getting the samples of a D-50? The only thing illegal would be to sell products based on them, but anyone can get the samples for their own use. What would prevent me of sampling my V-Synth XT D-50 and use the samples? And what would prevent me of renting a D-50 and sampling it, using the samples for my own productions?

I dunno, ask Eric Persing, he got very annoyed when somebody made that Kontakt instrument.

[Turello]

In fact I absolutely don't want to re-sell them, I just want a D-50 into my DAW!!!

[fmr]

What would be illegal in getting the samples of a D-50? The only thing illegal would be to sell products based on them, but anyone can get the samples for their own use. What would prevent me of sampling my V-Synth XT D-50 and use the samples? And what would prevent me of renting a D-50 and sampling it, using the samples for my own productions?

I dunno, ask Eric Persing, he got very annoyed when somebody made that Kontakt instrument.

Because they were SELLING it.

[Turello]

Numanoid, please google "XPLite" to understand what I mean for "lifted", I've talk about the OS!!! Not Illegal

And so Kontakt is a bit like smoking joints in Italy: You may not smoke a joint in Italy, it's illegal but the tobacconist selling everything you need..!

So Mr. Persing could fight the NI cause I think who have Kontakt can sampling all for personal use!!!

Tur: I wanna sample the rain sound, have a copyright?
H-ell-o: Yes, GOD!!!

[mhog]

I use my DAW OS lifted of internet and other services ... It would not a problem to get the samples of an original D-50

Maybe something got lost in the translation, you are legit right?

What would be illegal in getting the samples of a D-50? The only thing illegal would be to sell products based on them, but anyone can get the samples for their own use. What would prevent me of sampling my V-Synth XT D-50 and use the samples? And what would prevent me of renting a D-50 and sampling it, using the samples for my own productions?

I don't think you can. I mean, you can of course, but it is not "legal", because it's like buying a stolen car or smth. As far as I know, if you own a D-50 you can use all its sound in your music, either the factory ones or modified, but you cannot sell patches based on its samples (unless they are specifically for the D-50 itself). If you don't own a D-50, you can only play D-50 samples which are certified by Roland (such as the TB and TR virtual machines in Rebirth etc.), either for "personal use" or for published music. As far as I know, they don't exist, apart some samples in Omnisphere. For instance, all those kontakt patches based on various hardware synths, D-50 included... I think they are not legitimate. I could be wrong, though (I am rather ignorant, and have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

[fmr]

I don't think you can. I mean, you can of course, but it is not "legal", because it's like buying a stolen car or smth. As far as I know, if you own a D-50 you can use all its sound in your music, either the factory ones or modified, but you cannot sell patches based on its samples (unless they are specifically for the D-50 itself). If you don't own a D-50, you can only play D-50 samples which are certified by Roland (such as the TB and TR virtual machines in Rebirth etc.), either for "personal use" or for published music. For instance, all those kontakt patches based on various hardware synths... I think they are not legitimate. I could be wrong, though (I am rather ignorant, and have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

You cannot SELL the samples (and I didn't mention I would), but if you rent or loan a D-50 and sample it, you can use the samples YOU did in YOUR own stuff (nobody would known if you sampled it or used it anyway). Otherwise, by renting a D-50, or using a unit loaned to you, you would be infringing copyright too, which would be absurd. The same way when you loan a car or you rent a car, you are entitled to use it, even if don't own it. But you can't SELL it.

This copyright mambo-jambo is driving people nuts, me thinks.

[fmr]

... have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

If you create patches that use samples that come with Omnisphere and sell them (the patches), you are not SELLING the samples in Omnisphere. Of course you can sell the patches.

Anyone who has Omnisphere has the samples already licensed (they are licensed with the product). If they don't have Omnisphere, your patches won't work, because they just work INSIDE Omnisphere. What you would be selling would be YOUR work - the patches - NOT the samples, which are in the product into what the patches are intended to run.

What is difficult to understand here?

[mhog]

... have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

If you create patches that use samples that come with Omnisphere and sell them (the patches), you are not SELLING the samples in Omnisphere. Of course you can sell the patches.

Anyone who has Omnisphere has the samples already licensed (they are licensed with the product). If they don't have Omnisphere, your patches won't work, because they just work INSIDE Omnisphere. What you would be selling would be YOUR work - the patches - NOT the samples, which are in the product into what the patches are intended to run.

What is difficult to understand here?

Unfortunately, due to language barrier, I thought Spectrasonics policy was so restrictive one could not even use the samples of the STEAM engine to create new Omnisphere patches and sell them (I was thinking that it was allowed only for personal use: what I have done till now, owning Omnisphere and having made lots of patches). My (stupid) mistake, due to (a) their very rigid policy; (b) the fact there are so few third party Omnisphere libraries out there. What is the reason for such a poor market for third party Omnisphere libraries, in your opinion? I thought it was for that. Again, my mistake! Sorry for the confusion!

[mhog]

I don't think you can. I mean, you can of course, but it is not "legal", because it's like buying a stolen car or smth. As far as I know, if you own a D-50 you can use all its sound in your music, either the factory ones or modified, but you cannot sell patches based on its samples (unless they are specifically for the D-50 itself). If you don't own a D-50, you can only play D-50 samples which are certified by Roland (such as the TB and TR virtual machines in Rebirth etc.), either for "personal use" or for published music. For instance, all those kontakt patches based on various hardware synths... I think they are not legitimate. I could be wrong, though (I am rather ignorant, and have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

You cannot SELL the samples (and I didn't mention I would), but if you rent or loan a D-50 and sample it, you can use the samples YOU did in YOUR own stuff (nobody would known if you sampled it or used it anyway). Otherwise, by renting a D-50, or using a unit loaned to you, you would be infringing copyright too, which would be absurd. The same way when you loan a car or you rent a car, you are entitled to use it, even if don't own it. But you can't SELL it.

This copyright mambo-jambo is driving people nuts, me thinks.

I own the D-50. What about recording the patches and making a gift, sending them to you, so that you can use them in your music? Would it be legal? I guess it isn't, right? Unless I lend you my gear for some days and you record them? Sounds twisted, but yeah... in this case it could be legal, since that's what happening in recording studios (the musician goes there, play with all the hardware and records his music, even if he does not own them). Well, maybe the studios have particular agreements with audio brands, though... I don't know. I am confused, now, expecially with all those labyrinthine U.S. copyright laws (they copyright everything, record a turd splashing into water and copyright it, record a storm and copyright every single thunder, record a cow and say "this is my cow, nr. 54394 registered trade mark license" etc. ).

[aMUSEd]

... have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

If you create patches that use samples that come with Omnisphere and sell them (the patches), you are not SELLING the samples in Omnisphere. Of course you can sell the patches.

Anyone who has Omnisphere has the samples already licensed (they are licensed with the product). If they don't have Omnisphere, your patches won't work, because they just work INSIDE Omnisphere. What you would be selling would be YOUR work - the patches - NOT the samples, which are in the product into what the patches are intended to run.

What is difficult to understand here?

Unfortunately, due to language barrier, I thought Spectrasonics policy was so restrictive one could not even use the samples of the STEAM engine to create new Omnisphere patches and sell them (I was thinking that it was allowed only for personal use: what I have done till now, owning Omnisphere and having made lots of patches). My (stupid) mistake, due to (a) their very rigid policy; (b) the fact there are so few third party Omnisphere libraries out there. What is the reason for such a poor market for third party Omnisphere libraries, in your opinion? I thought it was for that. Again, my mistake! Sorry for the confusion!

There are quite a few actually now, it took a while for them to take off (for a while mine and a couple by Soundsdivine were the only ones) but in the last couple of years things have picked up and there are great banks by several sound designers (eg Plughugger, Vintage Synth Pads and The Unfinished) out now.

[fmr]

I own the D-50. What about recording the patches and making a gift, sending them to you, so that you can use them in your music? Would it be legal? I guess it isn't, right? Unless I lend you my gear for some days and you record them? Sounds twisted, but yeah... in this case it could be legal, since that what's happening in recording studios (the musician goes there, play with all the hardware and records his music, even if he does not own them). well, maybe the studios have particular agreements with audio brands, I don't know. I am confused, now, expecially with all those labyrinthine U.S. copyright laws (they copyright everything, record a turd splashing into water and copyright it, record a storm and copyright every single thunder, record a cow and say "this is my cow, nr. 54394 registered trade mark license" etc. ).

What do you think lawyers do for a living? Copyright laws went too far, IMO. My concern is keeping boundaries, and do not make something I know for sure it's illegal (like selling sampled stuff of sampled stuff).

For example: Let's say you program you D-50, create your own cool patches, and then decide to sample them and make a library. You carefully sample them, create programs for the sampler of your choice and build a collection. This is still a derivative work, therefore, there's still copyright infringement, but if you contact the manufacturer and present them your work, you may get a permit with some fair agreement (unless they are complete arses, which may also happens). IMO, this shouldn't even be copyrighted, but it's difficult to draw the line between what is original and what isn't (for us but also for them, that's why an agreement may be reachable). And in the case of the D-50, the ROM PCMs are basically a collection of plops, puffs and strikes (attack transients, with some small loops too). There isn't nothing really special and particularly outstanding in the ROM samples, to nowadays standards - nothing we couldn't recreate on our own with perhaps better results.

[mhog]

I own the D-50. What about recording the patches and making a gift, sending them to you, so that you can use them in your music? Would it be legal? I guess it isn't, right? Unless I lend you my gear for some days and you record them? Sounds twisted, but yeah... in this case it could be legal, since that what's happening in recording studios (the musician goes there, play with all the hardware and records his music, even if he does not own them). well, maybe the studios have particular agreements with audio brands, I don't know. I am confused, now, expecially with all those labyrinthine U.S. copyright laws (they copyright everything, record a turd splashing into water and copyright it, record a storm and copyright every single thunder, record a cow and say "this is my cow, nr. 54394 registered trade mark license" etc. ).

What do you think lawyers do for a living? Copyright laws went too far, IMO. My concern is keeping boundaries, and do not make something I know for sure it's illegal (like selling sampled stuff of sampled stuff).

For example: Let's say you program you D-50, create your own cool patches, and then decide to sample them and make a library. You carefully sample them, create programs for the sampler of your choice and build a collection. This is still a derivative work, therefore, there's still copyright infringement, but if you contact the manufacturer and present them your work, you may get a permit with some fair agreement (unless they are complete arses, which may also happens). IMO, this shouldn't even be copyrighted, but it's difficult to draw the line between what is original and what isn't (for us but also for them, that's why an agreement may be reachable). And in the case of the D-50, the ROM PCMs are basically a collection of plops, puffs and strikes (attack transients, with some small loops too). There isn't nothing really special and particularly outstanding in the ROM samples, to nowadays standards - nothing we couldn't recreate on our own with perhaps better results.

Well, actually my old D-50 is lying in the loft, all covered with dust, because... ahem... well, I think it sucks The factory patches are quite lame, apart the church organ and some few others (some plucks and "cinematic" pads). The "fifty piano" is kind of a bad trip The "rhythmic loops" are something unbearable to listen to, let alone playing them in tracks! "Fantasia" is a sort of "D-50 trademark" (the Bonzo's "When the Levee Breaks" of it), which of course no musician in the world would dare to use in his tracks... Maybe Kitaro, or some new age freak. The best sounds are the ones you can get with the semi-analogic engine. The rest is rather "plastic", or itchy "pizzicato" (see: Enya). Or those horrible "plin plin plin" sort of bells they used to put everywhere in the plastic mainstream (ugly) pop songs 30 years ago (see: Madonna, Cindy whatever, Kissing the Pink "hey mister" whatever one step, Limhal etc.).

[ghettosynth]

I use my DAW OS lifted of internet and other services ... It would not a problem to get the samples of an original D-50

Maybe something got lost in the translation, you are legit right?

What would be illegal in getting the samples of a D-50? The only thing illegal would be to sell products based on them, but anyone can get the samples for their own use. What would prevent me of sampling my V-Synth XT D-50 and use the samples? And what would prevent me of renting a D-50 and sampling it, using the samples for my own productions?

People often confuse a license violation with copyright issues. There might be a v-synth license agreement that prevents this. There are almost certainly no such agreements for older synths, a D50 for example. In both cases, they are explicitly protected by copyright.

What you're suggesting is not likely to be an issue of copyright, however, and to the best of my knowledge has never come up in any court case. I don't think that it ever will either. The elephant in the room is that this isn't something that manufacturers want to be decided by judges, the implied status quo does a fairly good job of taking care of the issues that matter.

There are not likely to be any specific legal concerns with what you're suggesting so long as the only use of your sampling is for your own productions. You have a license to use the samples and I doubt that specific restrictions one what kinds of processing or intermediate copying you do to them before they make it into your productions are worth worrying about for anyone. There are just too many issues with trying to force such a legal precedent.

If I borrow my friends D50, can I use it in a production? What if I go to a studio and use theirs, do they have to pay Roland a license fee? I don't think that anyone wants a real answer to these questions because it's not clear to me that the law would see it as clearly one-sided as manufacturers who create sample based instruments ,with the intent of the samples being copied to music, would like it to be.

[ghettosynth]

I don't think you can. I mean, you can of course, but it is not "legal", because it's like buying a stolen car or smth. As far as I know, if you own a D-50 you can use all its sound in your music, either the factory ones or modified, but you cannot sell patches based on its samples (unless they are specifically for the D-50 itself). If you don't own a D-50, you can only play D-50 samples which are certified by Roland (such as the TB and TR virtual machines in Rebirth etc.), either for "personal use" or for published music. For instance, all those kontakt patches based on various hardware synths... I think they are not legitimate. I could be wrong, though (I am rather ignorant, and have believed since three days ago that I was not allowed to use Omnisphere samples for commercial Omnisphere patches). So take this of mine with a pinch of salt.

You cannot SELL the samples (and I didn't mention I would), but if you rent or loan a D-50 and sample it, you can use the samples YOU did in YOUR own stuff (nobody would known if you sampled it or used it anyway). Otherwise, by renting a D-50, or using a unit loaned to you, you would be infringing copyright too, which would be absurd. The same way when you loan a car or you rent a car, you are entitled to use it, even if don't own it. But you can't SELL it.

This copyright mambo-jambo is driving people nuts, me thinks.

But would this apply to software? I think that if a license agreement doesn't cover this, then it's not clear to me that you can't do this. Do studios make their clients purchase any sample based instruments? Zero-G has such a clause in their license agreements. Studios can't use Zero-G sample library products for their customer's projects. The customer has to obtain their own license.

I also think that relicensing is an issue. Suppose you release your tracks under a creative commons license and you use your D50. Now, can other people sample your track under the creative commons license?

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a case against someone releasing a piece of music with a sample that is widely available in a sample based instrument. There have been cases against samples from other musicians, and there have been cases against manufacturers of products that use, e.g. sound canvas samples, but I would imagine that nobody is really interested in wasting resources trying to prove that, at the time that you used digital native dance in your awesome track, that you didn't own or have possession of a D50.